Contro l’Europa, ma anche contro il populismo nazionalista
Si può essere contro l’Europa con buoni argomenti, e anche con pessimi.
Il rinnovo del Parlamento europeo probabilmente manderà un segnale molto chiaro alle classi politiche del Vecchio Continente e a quell’euroburocrazia che, da Jean Monnet in poi, è impegnata nella costruzione di un super-potere centralizzato, lontano dai cittadini, voltato a moltiplicare l’azione coercitiva e a ridurre le libertà individuali.
Da tempo l’Unione è più all’origine di problemi che non di soluzioni. E se molti liberali sono euroscettici è perché l’Ue ha rovinato l’agricoltura europea con l’assistenzialismo e il protezionismo, è intrusiva e illiberale con direttive che restringono l’autonomia dei singoli e la libertà di mercato, è minacciosa con il suo progetto di un’armonizzazione crescente della regolazione e dei sistemi fiscali. (Ho già affrontato alcuni di tali temi in questo articolo, apparso nei giorni scorsi sul quotidiano on-line “L’Intraprendente”).
Liberali e libertari ritengono che l’Europa sia stata grande, in passato, proprio grazie al fallimento di Carlo Magno, Federico Barbarossa, Carlo V, Napoleone e Hitler. Quanti hanno provato a unificare l’Europa non ci sono riusciti e la molteplicità degli ordinamenti ha sempre permesso la più ampia concorrenza e varietà, spingendo le classi politiche a moderare le proprie pretese. Quando oggi la Francia è troppo esosa, un’impresa di Strasburgo può spostarsi a Colonia, sfuggendo con una certa facilità alla rapina fiscale parigina. Ma l’armonizzazione voluta da Bruxelles punta proprio a evitare questo genere di comportamento, che in qualche modo vincola l’arbitrio dei governanti.
Gli argomenti liberali contro l’unificazione europea, allora, sono molti e assai solidi.
Purtroppo l’euroscetticismo in genere è alimentato da altro. Il più delle volte i nemici di Bruxelles sono tali perché prigionieri di logiche nazionalistiche, senza comprendere come esista un legame assai forte tra sciovinismo patriottico e unificazionismo europeo. In fondo, Bruxelles sta tentando di realizzare in Europa quello che Parigi – nel corso di secoli e secoli – ha fatto in Francia, cancellando il diritto all’autogoverno della Provenza, della Bretagna, dell’Alsazia, della Corsica, della Normandia e via dicendo, e soprattutto distruggendo in larga misura le libertà degli individui. L’Ue è una sorta di proiezione mostruosa degli Stati nazionali e in larga misura ne replica le logiche. Essa è stata creata dagli Stati nazionali e non a caso avversa ogni progetto di autodeterminazione: dalla Scozia alla Catalogna, dalle Fiandre al Veneto.
Quello che si è detto per l’Europa lo si può ripetere per l’euro.
I liberali sono contrari alla moneta comune perché è stata creata dagli Stati, in modo del tutto artificiale, sottratta a quella competizione tra valute che è la sola condizione per avere monete affidabili. In secondo luogo, è una facile previsione quella di chi sostiene che presto la Banca centrale europea userà l’espansione monetaria per venire in soccorso di quanti (l’Italia, in primo luogo) devono fare conti con debiti pubblici insostenibili. E l’espansione monetaria è essenzialmente una redistribuzione di ricchezza da taluni ad altri: senza alcuna giustificazione e legittimità.
L’euro è un errore, anche se in questi anni ha garantito all’Italia e a qualche altro Paese bassi tassi di interesse sul debito e, di conseguenza, ha permesso significativi risparmi. Ma anche qui quanti sono contro l’euro lo fanno perché vogliono tornare a manipolare la moneta in maniera del tutto discrezionale. I fautori della lira vorrebbero ripristinare le cosiddette svalutazioni competitive: quelle rapina legali che distruggono i risparmiatori e beneficiano gli indebitati, eliminando quella stabilità della moneta che è una delle condizioni necessarie ad avere un’economia sana.
Lo scenario, alla fine, è quindi abbastanza disastroso, perché vede opporsi una tecnocrazia di politici e funzionari (i fanatici dell’Europa e dell’euro, fideisticamente convinti – come ha detto Matteo Renzi – che l’Europa sia “un destino comune”, qualcosa a cui non ci si può sottrarre) a cui si oppone quasi esclusivamente un coacervo di politici e intellettuali o presunti tali (pensi agli esponenti di quella teoria economica del tutto risibile che va sotto il nome di MMT) fondamentalmente votati al populismo e al nazionalismo.
Divisa in sostanza tra due statalismi, è difficile che l’Europa se la passi bene: e in effetti la situazione è alquanto drammatica, mentre l’intero continente va declinando. Ovviamente la storia è aperta e in particolare offre qualche ragione di speranza il possibile disgregarsi di realtà come il Regno Unito, la Spagna, il Belgio e l’Italia. Se il 2014 si rivelasse una sorta di rovesciamento del 1848, una specie di contro-risorgimento di taglio antinazionalista, anche la direzione dell’Europa potrebbe mutare in maniera significativa.
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All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Thomson Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is prohibited without the prior written consent of Thomson Reuters. Thomson Reuters is not liable for any errors or delays in Thomson Reuters content, or for any actions taken in reliance on such content. âThomson Reutersâ and the Thomson Reuters logo are trademarks of Thomson Reuters and its affiliated companies.
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Ukrainian Air Forces attack civil building
ANCHE FELTRI STATAL-COMUNISTA
Mi rivolgo soprattutto a Fabrizio (De Paoli), che per lo meno capisce quanto pericoloso possa essere uno stato per la libertà di tutti.
Oggi Feltri si è messo a sbroccare, suggerendo di pubblicare i redditi on-line quale misura per prendere i ladri e corrotti (????)
Mi chiedo che senso abbia tenere in piedi un giornale come questo, quando i direttori suggeriscono misure inutili, degne della DDR, e che non servono a NULLA, poiché già magistratura e polizia possono sapere TUTTO su proprietà, c/c, redditi, ecc., di ciascuno di noi.
Feltri ha preso una botta di caldo, dice che Nordio ha preso i ladri veneti del mose vedendo la disparità tra tenore di vita e redditi denunciati.
Bene, ma non ha dovuto certo cercarli on-line!
Già le aziende chiudono e le famiglie sono nella cacca, sai che grande vantaggio SPUTTANARE milioni di italiani poveri VERI, pubblicando i loro redditi on-line.
Oppure suscitare sospetti, delazioni, ecc., solo perché magari il vicino ha comprato la macchina nuova, e dichiara poco. E allora? Magari lo hanno aiutato i familiari, o ha usato i risparmi.
MA SE QUESTO GIORNALE VUOLE DIVENTARE UN’ALTRA UNITA’, LO DICA!
GIA’ HO SMESSO DI COMPRARLO IN EDICOLA, SE FELTRI HA VOGLIA DI SPARARE QUESTE FRESCATE, E FARLO CHIUDERE PRIMA, LO DICA!
UN GIORNALE CHE PUBBLICA QUESTI ARTICOLI DI GUANO COME QUELLI DI FELTRI MERITA SOLO DI CHIUDERE!!!
X Mariolino
La mia teoria sulla “dittatura” Briatore l’ha chiamata DITTATURA A TERMINE.
Sono completamente d’accordo con Briatore.
Franco Epifanio
x depaoli.fabrizio@libero.it il 5 giugno 2014 alle 22:34:ciàcià.
Damy Eku & Mariolino.
Tranquilli, i secessionisti Veneti son sempre lì e son la maggioranza
E ve lo dimostro:
Totale Veneti aventi diritto 3 900 000
Totale Veneti votanti 2 500 000
Totale Veneti astenuti 1 500 000
Gli sfigati che hanno votato PD sono solo 890 000.
Quindi, vogliamo dire che 1 500 000 sono secessionisti sicuri? Direi di sì.
vogliamo dire che nell’altro 1 600 000 che ha votato ma non ha votato PD non ci siano almeno 1 000 000 di secessionisti?
Gente che nel frattempo a cominciato a votare per partiti anti-Europa nell’attesa di sviluppi interni più concreti?
Senza poi contare la tara necessaria da farsi per portarsi al netto dei brogli di regime…
Un saluto.
Mi spiace fabri,i numeri non si possono contraddire:
VENETO AFFLUENZA 63,93%!!!”2.045.338+350.000 astensinismo ecc.vedi che ricaviamo gli stessi elettori e prima del Veneto indipendente e dopo il referendum.
Europee 2009
Veneto:votanti 2.697.777
Differenza di 450.000 voti rispetto alle europee recenti.Ma se aggiungiamo l’astensionismo vediamo che sono più o meno gli stessi voti…
PDL-792.525
LEGA NORD-766.946 e cosi via.
Se aggiungiamo l’astensionismo degli elettori di FI(2009 PDL)pari al 50%,visto alle recenti europee hanno votato;352.788 e nel 2009 792.525.
Purtroppo,la realtà è questa.
A vedere queste cifre,mi vien spontanea una osservazione al riguardo il referendum del Veneto indipendente:era contraffattto o no se questi sono i dati?…
L’INDIPENDENZA è parte anarchica,chi ha votato il referendum e poi le europee non è tale visto la speculazione credo.
Buona serata
Damy Eku & Mariolino.
Tranquilli, i secessionisti Veneti son sempre lì e son la maggioranza
E ve lo dimostro:
Totale Veneti aventi diritto 3 900 000
Totale Veneti votanti 2 500 000
Totale Veneti astenuti 1 500 000
Gli sfigati che hanno votato PD sono solo 890 000.
Quindi, vogliamo dire che 1 500 000 sono secessionisti sicuri? Direi di sì.
vogliamo dire che nell’altro 1 600 000 che ha votato ma non ha votato PD non ci siano almeno 1 000 000 di secessionisti?
Gente che nel frattempo a cominciato a votare per partiti anti-Europa nell’attesa di sviluppi interni più concreti?
Senza poi contare la tara necessaria da farsi per portarsi al netto dei brogli di regime…
Un saluto .
DamyEku il 4 giugno 2014 alle 16:20:
Vero, dove sono spariti, sciolti con il disgelo, il vecchio detto che pensar male non è bello ma spesso ci si indovina è sempre valido, il pd-l ha preso più di lega e forza Italia sommate.
Come hanno scritto forse il pd è diventato la nuova dc, e io mi incazzo fortemente a vuoto.
Salve tutti!?
Simpaticone,non è Berlusconi che non voto più ma la sua età…
Ora posto una osservazione per i veneti INDIPENDENTI dell’azz.”Tanto chiasso per niente”.
VENETO AFFLUENZA 63,93%
Ho posto qualche punto delle recenti elezioni euopee,giusto per capire dove sono gli indipendentisti del Veneto visto l’affluenza,credo la più alta in Italia.E dove sono i 2-milioni di veneti del referendum che votarono il Veneto indipendente?…Devo pensare alla speculazione?MMA!?
PARTITO DEMOCRATICO 899.723 37,52%
MOVIMENTO 5 STELLE BEPPEGRIllO.it 476.305 19,86%
http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corriere.it%2FSpeciali%2FPolitica%2F2014%2Felezioni%2FSEAS%2Feuropee%2F65403.shtml&ei=AyePU9WZOMXQ7AbL9ICIDw&usg=AFQjCNGBWD65NYEPHh44lmZJWwwTGCYEIg&bvm=bv.68235269,d.ZGU
@Natalia il 3 giugno 2014 alle 20:22:
Cara Natalia,
quello che riporti è solo uno degli esempi dell’infamia di quelle guerre determinate dalle INGERENZE dei governi di nazioni come quella a cui appartengo. Provo vergogna, per questo. L’ Europa ha preso posizione CONTRO il popolo ucraino, e NON a favore dello stesso. Quello che accade in Ucraina NON E’ ciò che i nostri media vorrebbero spacciare per vero. Cosa già successa nella Libia, che non tornerà mai più quella di Gheddafi. Né l’Iraq quello di Saddam. Gli occidentali stanno trasformando le nazioni in un Inferno per quei popoli, supportando i loro crimini internazionali con menzogne a tutto spiano. Lurida: PROPAGANDA!!!
Si può continuare per molto su questo tema. Gli europeisti della Merkel vorrebbero l’Ucraina DENTRO l’UE per spolparla come la Grecia. Gli USA vorrebbero i russi FUORI da Odessa e Sebastopoli, per installarvi le loro basi militari. Ci hanno provato anche in Georgia con la Rivoluzione delle Rose del 2003. Anche Saak’ashvili, “uomo forte” educato in USA, ha puntato tutto sull’Occidente. Grande amico di George W.Bush, avrebbe voluto entrare nella NATO ed in UE. Però anche lui è stato preso in giro dagli USA e dall’UE, come noi. Fino che ha acquistato armi è andato tutto liscio; quando nel 2008 ha provato il colpo di mano in Ossezia del sud, e i russi sono immediatamente intervenuti militarmente polverizzando le sue forze armate, nessuno ha mosso un dito in sua difesa. Tranne le solite chiacchiere internazionali di protesta. Il risultato è stato che Ossezia del Sud e Abkhazia sono perdute forse per sempre, l’ esercito russo non è stato ritirato neanche dalla stessa Georgia (si trova ancora perlomeno a Gori – la città natale di Stalin – mi risulta personalmente), la nazione ha subito un durissimo embargo dalla Russia che non ha più comprato i suoi prodotti, e la situazione economica georgiana è precipitata. Questo avviene quando un popolo si divide, com’è successo in Georgia. E qui in Italia non c’è verso di farlo comprendere. In Crimea, come in Ossezia del sud e Abkhazia, Putin sta difendendo gli interessi degli abitanti russi di quelle regioni, oltre che quelli geomilitari della sua nazione. L’ ex Presidente dell’Ucraina, per essersi opposto al disegno degli occidentali, è stato vittima di un colpo di Stato pianificato dallo stesso Occidente. La popolazione della Crimea (per lo più russofona e russa) si è ribellata, guardando con trepidazione a Putin. Che ora sta facendo ciò che Kennedy fece con l’URSS quando Mosca voleva piazzare le testate termonucleari a Cuba sotto il naso degli USA. La sua risposta al governo fantoccio di Kiev, all’ UE e agli USA è NIET, per fortuna. Come quella data da JFK a Kruscev. Può piacere o meno, ma è così. Ragion per cui: se l’Occidente vuole un conflitto a tutti i costi troverebbe pane per i suoi denti, questa volta. Con Gheddafi è stato facile, ha ricordato lo stesso Putin ad UE, NATO, e a chiunque voglia provarci. Crimea, Siria e Iran non si toccano, invece. Può piacere o meno, ma è così.
La persona più pericolosa per voi russi è Hillary Clinton, e la sua candidatura annunciata per le prossime presidenziali USA. Ed in Europa: Angela Merkel. Da una delle sue basi NATO è partito quel drone – controllato da operatori statunitensi – che i russi hanno catturato in Crimea (a Turetskij Val), grazie al sistema EW (Guerra Elettronica) Avtobaza.
“L’UAV MQ-5B, a giudicare dal suo numero di identificazione, appartiene alla 66.ma Brigata da ricognizione USA di stanza in Baviera e che dispone di 18 droni MQ-5B. All’inizio di marzo, la Brigata statunitense è stata trasferita presso Kirovograd, da dove i droni compiono i raid sulla Crimea e la frontiera russa. In precedenza, tali droni erano apparsi nella regione di Kherson, in Crimea.”
Questa la fonte, compresa la dichiarazione (da me condivisa) del vostro ministro degli Esteri Sergej Lavrov, dopo dopo i colloqui a Londra con il segretario di Stato USA John Kerry, il primo ministro inglese David Cameron e il ministro degli Esteri William Hague: “Stati Uniti ed Unione europea sostengono il governo golpista ucraino contro la Crimea”
http://aurorasito.wordpress.com/2014/03/15/ucraina-tra-droni-e-prestiti-a-vuoto/
Voglio sottolineare inoltre ciò che è successo in Europa alcuni giorni addietro: ad Aquisgrana è stato conferito il Premio annuale Carlo Magno, riservato a personaggi particolarmente meritevoli nel.. “processo di unificazione ed integrazione europeo” (parole particolarmente menzognere e fuorvianti, queste). Il “Carlo Magno (anzi: magno) 2014” è un soggetto che ha “il carisma di uno strofinaccio umido” (Nigel Farage dixit). Un’ameba, insomma.
Questo è ciò che l’ameba ha detto, incontrando i premier di Moldavia, Georgia e Ucraina:
“La situazione del vostro paese è nei nostri pensieri di oggi. La destabilizzazione del nostro vicino di casa comune, la Russia, è inaccettabile, ed è tanto più deplorevole perché in sostanza questo grande paese è interamente controllato (derivante) dalla civiltà e della cultura europea.”
L’ameba ha poi sciorinato gli… “esempi letterari”:
“Senza Shakespeare o Balzac non esisterebbe Dostoevskij, come sappiamo, nè Gogol; non ci sarebbe Kafka senza Tolstoj”
La “migliore” (cioè la più infame) dell’ameba è stata quando… “Ha ricordato i tre principali valori che l’Unione europea promette ai residenti del continente: il mondo e la democrazia, la prosperità e la solidarietà, e la vita civile come nazioni sovrane.”
Ha usato proprio queste parole! Nessuno, credo, avrebbe potuto esprimere tale un concentrato di SCHIFOSE BUGIE. Se non lui: il mitico Herman…
http://euobserver.com/media/src/be8ace7c06f5b3647238418883bdf013.jpg
…Van Rumpoy!!! (Farage è stato fin troppo educato…)
Questa è la fonte, nella tua lingua:
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/news/1682753.html
La stessa fonte che riporta alcune immagini del tuo video. E sono immagini veritiere.
Per dare un’ idea di cosa sia il Premio Carlo Magno, basta dire che nel 2002 è stato conferito ad una moneta: l’Euro. Umanizzata e santificata come divinità. Con la motivazione (repetita iuvant): “come nessun altro ha promosso l’integrazione prima che identificazione con l’Europa ed ha fornito un contributo decisivo ed epocale all’unificazione delle famiglie dei popoli”. Più fregatura di questa…
Alcuni vincitori “più che meritevoli” sono stati: Carlo Azeglio Ciampi (2005, in veste di PdR), Jen-Claude Junker (2006, attuale “candidato” della Merkel alla Commissione europea…), la stessa Angela Merkel (2008). Ogni commento mi pare superfluo.
Sii fiera dunque, cara Natalia, del tuo Presidente.
Io invece: lasciamo perdere…
До свидания и… удачи!
@DamyEku il 3 giugno 2014 alle 17:53:
Sarò pure un “simpaticone dell’azz..” però:
“Quando si nominano gli ultimi 20 anni,in occulto è rivolto al cav.inutile nasconderlo,altrimenti si nominano anche gli annio prima…”
– Non saprei tu… ma quando il sottoscritto nomina gli ultimi 20anni (quindi a far data dal ’94), può riferirsi solo a quei governi, non ad altri. Quelli del berlusca sono COMPRESI, e i danni pure. Ergo: non c’è nulla da nascondere. Se invece mi voglio riferire ai governi precedenti (… come ho sempre fatto), lo scrivo IN CHIARO. Non uso alcun “linguaggio occulto”, dunque, per capirci.
“A me sinceramente frega dello spread,purtdoppo la caduta di Berlusconi ha fatto si che tale parola dominasse sui complotti che oggi vengono a galla.”
– A me, altrettanto sinceramente, risulta che lo spread sia stato solo uno strumento (di tipo “detersivo” come ho detto) per ottenere un “effetto leverage”. Prova ne sia il consenso manifestato (“…il sant’uomo da detto sì” avevo scritto) dopo il risultato di Renzi. Al quale risultato, spiace dirtelo, hai CONTRIBUITO anche tu con la tua astensione.
“Io non racconto di Grillo e Berlinguer visto l’ha fatto lui deludendo i fans tradizionalisti…”
– Posso rispettare la tua opinione personale (in realtà questa è considerazione che hai applicato a te stesso, per come hai scritto) ma la mia è diversa. Chi ha seguito (come me) quello che fa il M5S si basa su altre valutazioni. Ho già scritto a cosa si devono, per me, quei voti persi.
“Su Re-Giorgio mi trovi in sintonia.Infatti l’ho sempre nenuto responsabile di tutti i mali dei governi Berlusconi.”
– Non siamo per nulla in sintonia, direi. Ferme restando le responsabilità del PdR nel suo ruolo istituzionale (a ciascuno il suo), restano i (plurale) mali dei governi Berlusconi. Ascrivibili, invece, al personaggio in questione. Per gli anni in cui ha governato, ovviamente. Ti pare linguaggio così “occulto”, il mio?
“Al riguardo Monti parlano i dati di entrata e uscita dello stesso.”
– Embè? Ho forse detto il contrario?!? Mai fatta l’apologia di Monti, nemmeno ai tempi di Foa, anzi! Solo che io ho sempre parlato d’altro: chi è stato ad aprire la porta a Monti? Re Giorgio che l’ha fatto senatore a vita o Berlusconi che si è dimesso ed ha accettato il personaggio (assieme a quelli del PD) e poi gli ha firmato pure la carta igienica? Mi pare di essere stato più che chiaro nel merito, suvvia…
“Lascia perdere la Libia Salvatore,Berluisconi è stato l’unico Statista stava allacciando interessi esteri a favore dell’Italia”
– Non lascio perdere un bel piffero, Damy! Ci ha provato un altro a dire la stessa cosa, da Filippi. Non mi pare corretto fare nomi, ma chiedi pure a mariolino che fine ha fatto, quel “grande esperto di geografia (e di geostrategie)”. Digliela così e vedrai che mariolino si ricorda chi era, visto che ci ha messo pure lui un bel carico da 90 sopra, eh..eh.. Orbene: quale sarebbe stato l’ “allaccio” agli interessi dell’Italia di questo “Grande Statista”? Vogliamo ribaltare la realtà? Per la Libia in particolare io sono l’ultima persona a cui puoi dirlo. Hai scordato il Gruppo per cui lavoravo?!? Come se non bastasse, ho già postato la copia del trattato di amicizia Italia-Libia, e ne ho sottolineato i contenuti. Chi ha TRADITO quel trattato, dimmi: Gheddafi, forse? Non chi aveva apposto la sigla per parte italiana? Gli interessi dell’Italia, poi, in generale: quali sarebbero stati per lo “Statista” di cui sopra? la partecipazione armata a QUALUNQUE GUERRA altri soggetti (a partire dagli USA) lo condizionassero, acquisto d’armamenti compreso? Lo “Statista” che dici è stato uguale a quegli altri, in questo.
O sei per caso uno di quelli che pensano che le denominazioni costruite per giustificare quelle INUTILI (per noi) quanto CRIMINALI carneficine (anche di soldati italiani) siano veritiere? Il tuo “Statista”, inoltre e per ripeterne solo un’altra già detta, è stato il PROPONENTE di Eurogendfor (postato anche il documento a firma sua, di Frattini, La Russa e Alfano). Vuoi lasciar perdere anche questo? Io NO, grazie. Tu ignora pure, se vuoi.
Concludendo: Io non scrivo “lenzuolate per depistare”Involontariamente” i post altrui.”
Perché non ho motivo di depistare una beata mazza, a meno che qualcuno non mi consideri un troll. E non ho mai avuto la sensazione che tu mi veda sotto questa veste. Neanche “involontariamente”. O mi sbaglio?
Buona serata anche a te, testa matta dell’azz… eheheheh
franco epifanio il 3 giugno 2014 alle 16:52:
E’ vero, sono MOLTO pessimista, e le volte che mi sono fidato di qualcuno me lo hanno messo spesso sotto la coda.
Sò che è un brutto difetto quello del bicchiere mezzo vuoto, ma nessuno può scegliere come essere, siamo tutti come siamo dalla nascita alla morte.
Saluti.
SOS!!!
per favore! Dicci la verità . Ucraina esercito uccide civili in Ucraina! Si prega di aiuto per persone hanno imparato a conoscere queste informazioni
#SaveDonbassPeopleFromUKRArmy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kc5q8E69yY
Natalia dalla russia
Salve tutti!?
x Salvatore Franco il 31 maggio 2014 alle 21:51
QUANDO MAI: avrei detto che è stato “Solo lui” a portarci dove siamo ora? Negli ultimi 20 anni sappiamo tutti che non c’è stato “solo lui”.
Quando si nominano gli ultimi 20 anni,in occulto è rivolto al cav.inutile nasconderlo,altrimenti si nominano anche gli annio prima…
LO SPREAD: usi ancora lo spread come parametro valutativo?
A me sinceramente frega dello spread,purtdoppo la caduta di Berlusconi ha fatto si che tale parola dominasse sui complotti che oggi vengono a galla.
E tu, invece di guardare ‘sta roba, mo’ mi vieni a raccontare di Grillo e Berlinguer…
Io non racconto di Grillo e Berlinguer visto l’ha fatto lui deludendo i fans tradizionalisti ed esporsi a conseguenze di voto negativo come è sicuramente accaduto.
Su Re-Giorgio mi trovi in sintonia.Infatti l’ho sempre nenuto responsabile di tutti i mali dei governi Berlusconi.
MONTI: adesso, guarda un po’, vorresti dare la colpa solo a Monti? “Solo lui”(per citarti)? Certo, come no, diamo pure la colpa a chi vuoi tu, meno che al berlusca.
Al riguardo Monti parlano i dati di entrata e uscita dello stesso.
Lascia perdere la Libia Salvatore,Berluisconi è stato l’unico Statista stava allacciando interessi esteri a favore dell’Italia”Mme frega se erano o no per conflitti di interessi”.
GRILLO: ma tu credi veramente che quei voti perduti alle europee si debbano al “post-Porta a Porta”?
Tu hai frainteso le mie parole al riguardo Porta a Porta.Infatti,avevo detto che se Grillo si fosse fermato a Porta a Porta senza fare più un altra uscita, avrebbe conquistato anche il mio voto.Dopo…
PS: ma tu, DamyEcu, per chi hai votato alle europee, (e alle politiche 2013)? Mica l’hai detto, eh…
Buona serata.
Salvatore,a me non è sfiggito niente,anzi ti avevo risposto in anticipo anche;solo che tu ami le lenzuolate per depistare”Involontariamente” i post altrui.
Infatti,credo,aver postato che Berlusconi non lo voterò più,mentre voterò Renzi dopo aver analizzato i cento giorni che ci ha venduto con televendite nazionali.
In sintesi:faccio parte di quel 50% dell’astensione.Buona serata SIMPATICONE dell’azz…ahahahahah
X Mariolino
Va bene così,pur rispettando le tue idee io rimango con le mie.
Solo una breve annotazione,non ti sembra di essere un po’ troppo pessimista?
Suvvia credo che a volte ci faccia bene credere in qualcosa o in qualcuno,in caso contrario si dovrebbe andare a vivere in qualche atollo deserto.
Detto questo fine della discussione per quanto mi riguarda.
Un saluto.
Franco Epifanio
franco epifanio il 2 giugno 2014 alle 16:43:
Potrebbe anche andare, ma chi potrebbe essere e chi ce lo mette, sicuro poi che dopo un anno se ne vada?
Ai tempi dei romani succedeva che se ne tornassero nei campi come Cincinnato, ora mettono l’attack sul seggiolone.
Caro Mariolino,mi aspettavo una risposta del genere da parte tua.Conosco abbastanza bene le tue idee al riguardo.
Allora mettiamola così: ben venga in Italia un commissario straordinario con pieni poteri per almeno dodici mesi,col solo limite di rispettare la Costituzione del nostro Paese.
Cosa te ne pare.
Un caro saluto.
Franco Epifanio
franco epifanio il 2 giugno 2014 alle 13:40:
Caro Franco, io invece credo che l’uomo forte e puro è un’utopia, qualcuno disse che il potere assoluto corrompe assolutamente, e per me aveva ragione.
Si sono visti molti uomini forti nella storia, ma dietro di se hanno lasciato scie di sangue e nazioni distrutte, spesso e volentieri anche la loro, i nomi si sanno tutti.
Un solo uomo poi non può avere cognizione di tutto lo scibile umano e dare direttive su tutto, il fiorentino poi se non sbaglio era soprannominato il bomba, essendo di quelle parti sò bene cosa vuol dire, uno che le spara gorsse ma grosse davvero.
Sembra anche che fosse un arrivista ambizioso oltre ogni limite, e io ho paura di gente come quella, dicono che fanno le cose per il bene del popolo, ma le fanno di più per soddisfare il proprio ego illimitato.
Io non voglio certo essere messo in riga, anche se purtroppo ci sono sempre stato, mi piacerebbe ogni tanto anche a me alzare la testa, ma vedo che tutte le volte arriva lo scapaccione e mi ricaccia nel fango, ma che3 debba essere anche contento di sistemi del genere no assolutamente.
Per quanto riguarda i risultati elettorali il 40% del Renzino quanto è rispetto al totale vero degli aventi diritto, neanche il 25, ovvero ben poco, una robusta minoranza, perchè tutti gli altri gli sono contrari altrimenti lo avrebbero votato.
Le regole del gioco poi dovrebbero essere scritte a maggioranza larghissima, e non a favore di chi comanda, dovrebbe essere il contrario, tutelare di più chi è contro, chi comanda ha già il potere e dovrebbe bastargli,il sistema che vogliono fare invece mette il parlamento agli ordini diretti del premier, a quel punto a che serve l’assemblea legislativa che dovrebbe essa fare le leggi, a quel punto inutile farla, ma che sia poi democrazia ho seri dubbi.
Dittatori illuminati non mi sembra di averne visti nella storia, il nostro non era poi dei peggiori, ma era comunque legato ai potenti
industriali e agrari dell’epoca, e di quelli faceva ampiamente gli interessi, qualche contentino poi anche ai poveracci, le solite briciole.
X Mariolino
Caro Mariolino,oggi in Italia SERVE un uomo con pieni poteri.
Mi spiego meglio.
Quando il presidente del consiglio,chiunque esso sia,vuole fare una riforma,trova sempre sulla strada chi tenta di intralciarlo e,purtroppo,molto spesso non gli permettono di fare niente o al massimo solo una minima parte.
Di conseguenza qui da noi le cose rimarranno sempre uguali.
Questo vale sia per le riforme sia per i famosi decreti sulla spesa.
Basta vedere cosa sta succedendo nella RAI,appena Renzi propone una revisione sui tanti sprechi,subito si scatenano quelli che vogliono mantenere lo status quo per paura di perdere una parte dei loro favolosi compensi.
La stessa cosa avviene su tutti gli altri comparti dello stato, magistratura compresa.
Se il premier si “permette” di toccare i tanti privilegi di cui godono si scatena il finimondo,naturalmente sempre avvallati dai sindacati.
Allora urge,secondo me,l’UOMO FORTE,che faccia le cose senza che debba nessuno.
L’UOMO FORTE in questo momento potrebbe essere Matteo Renzi con i risultati elettorali che ha avuto alle ultime elezioni.
L’unico errore di Matteo è stato quello di volere fare tante cose troppo in fretta.
Qui al sud Italia c’è un detto:
A GATTA PRESSAROLA FECI LI FIGLI CICATI.
Penso sia superfluo tradurre in Italiano.
Ed è quello che sta succedendo a Renzi,per il resto spero che il premier riesca ad andare fino in fondo e che possa portare a termine i suoi progetti.
Fatta questa lunga premessa,dico che io sono favorevole non solo all’UOMO FORTE ma vado oltre,sono favorevole ad un moderno dittatore che faccia tutto quello che ritiene giusto per il nostro Paese senza dovere temere sempre i soliti ricatti.
Ricatti che gli vengono fatti non solo dai vari partiti politici,ma anche da tutte le categorie di lavoratori,dai vari centri sociali,dai tanti NO TAV,dai tanti NO NUCLEARE,dai tanti NO EURO,e cosi via all’infinito.
Caro Mariolino,concludendo ti dico che la “democrazia”così come è concepita qui da noi non funziona affatto,allora ben venga qualcuno che ci possa mettere in riga tutti quanti,a partire da quelli come me.
Io non vedo alternative.
Forse soffriremo un pochino noi tutti ma ci guadagneranno nel tempo i nostri figli ed i nostri nipoti.
Buona giornata.
Franco Epifanio
@DamyEcu
Cià cià, Damy,
QUANDO MAI: avrei detto che è stato “Solo lui” a portarci dove siamo ora? Negli ultimi 20 anni sappiamo tutti che non c’è stato “solo lui”. Se commentassi su una Testata di verso opposto avrei “ricamini” a iosa pure per gli altri. Forse tu no, ma io, il novembre 2011 lo ricordo bene. E le responsabilità pregresse del berlusca pure. Cos’è, non si può più dire da ‘ste parti?
LO SPREAD: usi ancora lo spread come parametro valutativo? Mah… strano… per me forse è la marca di un detersivo “Spread, e i tuoi piatti saranno più puliti” (e vuoti, più che altro). Se è per questo ci sono anche le agenzie di rating. Professori senza titolo che danno il loro outlook a destra e a manca secondo convenienza. Vatti a guardare chi è dentro S&P, Moody’s e Ficht. E dove sono collocate. Sono stufo di ripetere sempre le stesse cose. E tu, invece di guardare ‘sta roba, mo’ mi vieni a raccontare di Grillo e Berlinguer… ma dimmi: conosci qualche altro grosso partito, oltre il M5S, che mette almeno in discussione l’Euro di merda? Niente da fare: non posso spostare neanche una virgola di ciò che ho scritto finora su chi ha governato l’Italia. E spiacente, se sei tra quelli, per chi non ama sentirselo dire: berlusca, di danni, ne ha fatti anche troppi. A partire dal suo partito e a finire con noi. E la cosa più orripilante è che non s’è ancora tolto dai coglioni, visto che dice che ama l’Italia. Straparla un po’ troppo, per i miei gusti. E per quelli di molti che gli avevano creduto nel ’94.
NAPOLITANO: fare le pulci adesso a Napolitano – a scoppio ritardato – mi pare una BELLA SCUSA (oltre che una GRANDE BALLA per quelli del Giornale, finalizzata a raccattare ancora 2 o 3 consensi per il datore di lavoro. E questa è la differenza con il sottoscritto e i “bananas” (def. by “komu”): a me non entra in tasca neanche un cent. se considero il nap solo una pedina del gioco che s’intitola Nuovo Ordine Mondiale. E, già che ci sono (perché questa fino all’altro giorno mi mancava), come lui e Ratzinger per il NWO, ora c’è dentro pure questo Papa! pure lui “simpatico” all’inizio.. ma che, non pago della sortita a Lampedusa, dice che il chip RFID è… cosa buona e giusta! Pedina importante quanto vuoi, il nap, di estrazione rossa quanto vuoi, e quello – lo sappiamo tutti – così morirà (cioè forse mai): continuando a pensarla in quel modo. Ma questo che diavolo c’entra? in ogni caso l’Italia non è un Paese dove comanda il Presidente. Non è stata governata dal Nap. La plateale definizione di “Re Giorgio” non ci sarebbe mai stata se chi ha governato lo avesse fatto in nome e nell’ interesse del popolo italiano. Re Giorgio, peraltro, è uno eletto da: LORO-E-NON-DA-NOI. E’ berlusca, semmai, che – sistematicamente a scoppio ritardato – incolpa il nap di pressioni che avrebbe esercitato assieme ai compagnucci rossi. Stesso ragionamento dello spread, per me: vada pure a raccontare le sue barzellette ai vecchietti a 10 stelle (altro che 5!) che frequenta ora, tra una dentiera e un distintivo del Milan.
MONTI: adesso, guarda un po’, vorresti dare la colpa solo a Monti? “Solo lui”(per citarti)? Certo, come no, diamo pure la colpa a chi vuoi tu, meno che al berlusca. Però – occhio alla penna veramente, stavolta, Damy – Monti… chi è che lo ha fatto entrare? E’ stato Grillo? Forse noi del M5S? E quando Monti è arrivato, tu vorresti forse dirmi che… non sapevano chi era?!? Allora io chi sarei, Nostradamus? E, così come sapevo io COSA (non chi) era Monti, vuoi dirmi che chi SI E’ DIMESSO (lo puoi dire forte, eh) nascondendosi dietro la lavagna come il bimbetto beccato con le mani nella marmellata… INVECE… era troppo occupato coi bunga bunga, i cucù, i dudù e le Ruby per non sapere che quello era un killer economico? Neanche il suo ministro Tremonti lo sapeva, poverino? Vorresti fare passare quella Banda-Bassotti per cherubini con le alucce? Niente da fare, mio caro, spiacente: non regge neanche questa.
L’INSISTENZA (tua, visto che c’è…): maaaa.. Eurogendfor… la Libia… le guerre… lo stesso Monti… tutto lo schifo (pre-durante-e-dopo-Monti) che sono stanco di elencare… a chi cacchio lo dovremmo noi? a mia nonna, secondo te? “lui” – invece – non c’entrava nulla? Neanche per sogno, scordatelo: “lui” ha le mani sporche di sangue come i rossi. Perché sono entrambi “loro”, anche PRIMA di Monti, che avevano la pistola fumante in mano. Pure con quelle popolazioni che sono andati FI-SI-CA-MEN-TE ad ammazzare all’estero, dopo baciamani vari. E mentre ci facevano invadere economicamente. Ma per favore…
GRILLO: ma tu credi veramente che quei voti perduti alle europee si debbano al “post-Porta a Porta”? Gli attacchi QUOTIDIANI di tutti – e dico TUTTI – i media, dalle elezioni 2013, non c’entrerebbero nulla, invece? Ma insomma, almeno ‘sto cacchio di Giornale, Damy: lo leggi o non lo leggi ogni giorno? Prova a fare un mini-sondaggio tra quelli che conosci, e ti sentirai dire le solite stronzate che sento (e leggo) io, per lo più: “…ma Grillo urla… però è un riccone… è un pluriomicida… guadagna coi CD… è un comico e non un politico… e ognuno deve fare il suo mestiere… ma poi non hanno nemmeno un programma… ma Casaleggio è il guru…”. Mi sbaglio, caro Damy?!?
M5S: ora resta lo zoccolo duro (non i “fan-di-Grillo” come scrive qualcuno), quelli che riescono ad informarsi anche al di fuori di giornali e TV. E, soprattutto che seguono quei ragazzi giorno per giorno. Quei voti (i media si possono sbattere fino alla consunzione – di quello che non hanno – se vogliono) non li sposti neanche a cannonate. E sono i due terzi di quelli che c’erano alla prima – ed ultima, almeno finora – tornata politica. Meglio così, paradossalmente: ci sono 6 milioni di italiani: a) che si sono convinti, b)che non si sono prostituiti per un piatto di minestra, e c)che non si sono rincoglioniti. Per di più, strano ma vero, conosco personalmente anche qualche pensionato tra loro. Gente che soffre, ma che non è rimasta a casa e non ha cambiato idea all’ultimo momento.
GLI ALTRI “ex M5S”: io credo (anzi, mi pare del tutto evidente) che se ne siano stati a casa perché erano semplici “voti di protesta” contro la vecchia classe politica e basta. Ragione per cui dubito seriamente che siano.. “emigrati” altrove. Gente non sufficientemente informata, alla fine: quelli dello slogan “governo ladro” e niente più di questo. Mi pare che berlusca – COMUNQUEMENTE (come dice CETTO..) – abbia perso “qualcosina” in più, da quando fa politica. O mi sbaglio? Sarà un caso?
INSOMMA: io sono stanco, amico mio, veramente stanco di combattere contro mulini a vento rincoglioniti o in mala fede. Come vedi, qualcuno prima di me (che non mi pare certo del M5S) comincia a tirare le somme:
“Forse ha ragione Grillo: gli italiani sono un popolo di pensionati, o forse c’è in giro il virus del rincoglionimento totale…Visto che è così pieno di italiani che amano darsi le randellate sulla balle…”.
Ecco, io aggiungerei solo che quelle randellate sulle balle – l’italiota – se le sta dando almeno da vent’anni. Si è/lo hanno addestrato, insomma: ha fatto tanto di quel training – autogeno e non – da ridurre progressivamente sensibilità e volume dei santissimi in dotazione, fino a farli scomparire. Evidentemente quella è diventata anche gente che quando vede qualche altro italiano che si suicida o muore di fame si gira sempre dall’altra parte. Purchè tutto resti almeno “ad un palmo dal culo suo” per dirla alla francese. Questi sono i più, l’ho già scritto. Emeriti pezzi di merda che io, solo per mia somma educazione, chiamo italioti. Volgari ortaggi: finocchiume mentale, altro che gay e lesbiche…
INFINE (se mi leggi): dovresti aver capito che – a me – non frega UNA BEATA MINCHIA di dover vedere A TUTTI I COSTI differenze che non esistono più, tra i rossi e gli altri. Altrimenti starei con una delle due parti. A proposito.. forse ti è sfuggita la mia domanda del 28 maggio 2014 alle 18:59, da cui il seguente
PS: ma tu, DamyEcu, per chi hai votato alle europee, (e alle politiche 2013)? Mica l’hai detto, eh…
Buona serata.
come volevasi dimostrare, hanno già raddoppiato la tassa sui passaporti, e tra poco raddoppieranno le tasse sulla casa, come se già non fossero state insopportabili.
Ora Renzi elogia anche la Merkel.
Forse ha ragione Grillo: gli italiani sono un popolo di pensionati, o forse c’è in giro il virus del rincoglionimento totale.
Votano uno che fa parte del partito + TASSAIOLO d’Italia, quindi votano per farsi rubare altri soldi, e rendere più grave ancora la crisi.
Bene, già che ci siamo perché non fondiamo la lista TAFAZZI?
Visto che è così pieno di italiani che amano darsi le randellate sulla balle…
depaoli.fabrizio@libero.it il 30 maggio 2014 alle 20:09:
Fabrizio, allo stato no, ma di sicuro neanche ai privati, che considero ancora peggio, neanche fanno finta di non mettertelo sotto la coda, e pure senza vaselina.
Mariolino,
“Poteri troppi grandi non vanno mai dati a nessuno, la storia insegna che spesso ne abusano, e i danni sono irreparabili, poi ci vogliono generazioni per rimediare ai danni”
Sacrosante parole. …nemmeno allo stato.
Un saluto .
A tutti i monetaristi.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kXI_z-frcdk
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HSA7lwRxf9s
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X66227Q-_38
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bNS6ND6X-AI
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DwuaAC_W0yQ
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RKn434xy7ys
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zcrRyRzrKY0
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv_BfB1ShUI
Se trovate l’argomento interessante ci sono altre 10 puntate.
Un saluto .
Salvatore,ecco il disastro lasciatoci dal successore Monti dopo le dimissioni.2altro che Berlusconi”
DamyEku il 21 dicembre 2012 alle 20:00:”blog di Foa”
>>>Monti si dimette<>Ci lascia in queste condizioni<<<
"Impoveriti e senza lavoro"
68% di contratti a termine.
1.128.000 tra i 15-34 anni in cerca di lavoro.
Donne inattive,48%.
10.490.000 lavoratori dipendenti a tempo indeterminato.
12.280.000 occupati nell'anno in corso.
165.000 in meno rispetto all'anno precedente.
30% gli italiani a rischio POVERTA'-in un anno aumentati del 3,3%.
Al sud rischio del 39,5%,nord 24,6%,media nazionale 15%.
2.780.000 famiglie in condizioni di povertà su 8.170.000 persone.
16% delle famiglie non arriva a fine mese.
Circa 8.000.000 di pensionati,vivono con meno di 1.000 euro al mese.
Consumi fermi,per 2.500.000 famiglie.
8 italiani su 10:(FFANKIULL MONTI!!!)il restante è imBUEggiato.
"LA VERA FINE DEL MON-TI"
(BAT)DamyEku "SENZA PAROLE"
“MI SCAPPAVA UNA OSSERVAZIONE”
Salvatore,Foa posta anche su Forebase,l’ho letto ieri sera.
Salvatore Franco il 28 maggio 2014 alle 18:59:
Anch’io ho creduto a qualcuno, nel ’94. Poi però, al netto di tutto quello che vogliamo (attacchi della magistratura, bunga bunga, condanne, figure di merda personali etc.), il Silvio nazionale alla fine cos’ha dimostrato? Di averci portati dove siamo ora, in estrema sintesi.
Salvatore,ciàcià.Non condivido che Berlusconi”Solo lui” ci ha portati dove siamo ora.Spread fine agosto,278-disoccupzione prima che Berlusconi desse le dimissioni”DIMISSIONI” era 8,7%,non sto ad elencare tutto ciò che i governi Berlusconi hanno fatto.Una cosa è certa:finchè l’Italia avrà come presidente della Repubblica un comunista andrà sempre indietro.
Al riguardo Grillo,dopo tutto non ha subito ancora ciò che ha subito Berlusconi per vent’anni.
I rossi avranno sempre vita vivente finchè non ci sarà una riforma radicale nella PA.Infatti hanno sempre un rigore a favore,3.500.000 voti del pubblico,sindacati ecc.A Grillo consiglio di riprendere i toni di Porta a Porta,vedrà che tanti lo voteranno.Buona serata
Uno di sinistra non capisco come faccia a votare il bellimbusto fiorentino, giustamente sul Giornale è stato scritto che ha rifondato la DC, infatti da lì viene.
Io non sono molto vispo, ma certamente da uno come lui non comprerei mai un’auto usata, di sicuro sarebbe una sola pazzesca, con i km taroccati e i freni finiti.
Io non ho votato per causa di forza maggiore, Salvatore sa perchè, ma mai lo avrei votato, forse avrei votato addirittura Silvio per protesta, perchè se Silvio è bugiardo e venditore di fumo l’altro vende direttamente le ciminiere, e ho paura che il suo fumo sia come quello che faccio io , ovvero quello della monnezza.
Molti lo avranno votato davvero come premio personale, cosa che è sempre stata contraria alle mie idee, sono contro il leaderismo ora e sempre, di quelli che fanno tanta scena non mi sono mai fidato, quà si dice di uno come lui che dà parecchia aria ai denti, ma appunto aria, di polpa non ne vedo assolutamente, o forse sarà quella del nostro culo, che verrà come sempre sodomizzato, cambiano solo le dimensioni dello strumento, forse stavolta sarà anche più grosso e nerboruto.
Il figuro in questione accentrerà su di se un enorme potere, grazie ai beoti italiani, quando sentiranno l’arnese che li sfonda potranno dare la colpa solo a se stessi, se credono che uno con i pieni poteri faccia gli interessi del popolo sono degli idioti, quella gente lì pensa solo alla propria sfrenata ambizione, e magari anche a riempirsi le tasche.
La mitica figura dello statista disinteressato è appunto un mito, se non lo fà per soldi lo fà magari per passare alla storia come un grande, per me comunque stronzo chiunque egli sia.
Poteri troppi grandi non vanno mai dati a nessuno, la storia insegna che spesso ne abusano, e i danni sono irreparabili, poi ci vogliono generazioni per rimediare ai danni.Saluti.
x Franco Epifanio,ciàcià.
franco epifanio il 28 maggio 2014 alle 15:06:
X Dami Eku
Se oggi Matteo Renzi fondasse un suo partito personale che potremmo chiamare per esempio Forza Renzi,giusto per stare in tema di FI,diventerebbe il primo partito,forse con la stessa (o più) percentuale ottenuta alle Europee.
Il calcolo è semplice.
Dal PD raccoglierebbe il 50% dei voti del partito.
Prenderebbe tutti i voti degli ex Montiani.
Tutti i voti del NCD.
Prenderebbe un buon 75% dei voti di FI.
Prenderebbe una grande fetta dei Grillini.
Anche dalla Lega raccatterebbe parecchio.
Per ultimo prenderebbe in bel 50% di quelli che oggi si sono astenuti.
Lascio a te il conteggio del totale.
Ciao ciao.
Franco Epifanio
Dal PD raccoglierebbe il 50% dei voti del partito.
Vero.
Prenderebbe tutti i voti degli ex Montiani.
Tutti i voti del NCD.
Non vero:visto li ha già presi in parte.
Prenderebbe un buon 75% dei voti di FI.
Non vero.Visto il 30% degli elettori di FI fanno parte di quel 50% di astensionismo.Avesso voluto votare Renzi lo avrebbero fatto già.
Prenderebbe una grande fetta dei Grillini.
Non vero,e neanche la buccia.Infatti,se partiamo dal principio”che il primo amore non si scorda mai”che i voti di Grillo sono fans,cioè quelli che votano e lo hanno votato per la prima volta non li sposti manco con un carro armato.Quel quasi 4% di voti in meno che Grillo ha preso erano già voti di sinistra il 2% l’altro due non ha avuto tempo di andare a votare.franco,ricorda che il voto dato per coscienza individuale non è come darlo oggi ad un partito e domani ad un altro.
Anche dalla Lega raccatterebbe parecchio.Non vero:
Salvini sta facendo bene,quindi ha intrapreso la strada che ispira fiducia,non solo alla Lega ma anche ai veneti indipendentisti.
Per ultimo prenderebbe in bel 50% di quelli che oggi si sono astenuti.
Non vero:lo avrebbero già votato Renzi,visto le tante beneficenze a partire dagli 80 euro che già più di uno ha trovato in busta paga.
Ora rimando a te il conteggio totale.
NB:FI o Berlusconi,hanno vinto le elezioni quando alle urne la percentuale ha superato l’81%.Quindi renzi non ha vinto un azz ancora con tale analisi.
Io non ho niente contro Renzi NB,ho solo portato analisi a chi crede d’aver ammazzato i 5s o Grillo scrivendo fesserie.
Non vorrei che la vittoria di Renzi”Giusto per venirti incontro”rimanesse una INAUGURAZIONE di un negozio o una strattura nel deserto che chiude dopo 24 ore.La differenza tra l’inaugurazione del PD di Renzi e un negozio è che a questultima va sempre il prete,mentre a Renzi è andato in OCCULTO.
Buona serata.
@ DamyEku il 28 maggio 2014 alle 11:10:
Beh, testa matta, che dirti…
..mi piacerebbe che fosse come dici. E un po’ lo è, in effetti, ma non tanto da poter ribaltare un risultato. Concordo sul fatto che il popolo italiota è un leader-dipendente. Ma proprio per questo i veri MATATI siamo noi, non loro. Per gli italioti è stata sempre solo una questione di forma, non di sostanza, solo che nessuno vuole ammetterlo. Lo si capisce bene anche frequentando (anche da soli lettori) i blog. Ruota sempre tutto sul nome, mai sul programma o sulla credibilità dei competitori. La cosa che mi lascia sempre più esterrefatto sono proprio i calcoli numerici perfino quando si fanno le previsioni. Sembra di parlare di Calcio, quando si parla di qualcosa che influenza profondamente la vita della gente. E i politici sono visti come semplici giocatori, campagne acquisti comprese. Le campagne elettorali dovrebbero essere basate su costrutti positivi, ma negli ultimi decenni sono state connotate dagli attacchi verso altri competitori, generando solo confusione. Perfino nel Calcio questo fenomeno non esiste: non fai mai le pulci al giocatore di un’altra squadra. Tiri per la tua e poi si decide tutto sul campo. Noi invece possiamo parlare solo di partite truccate, se proprio vogliamo fare un paragone.
Anch’io ho creduto a qualcuno, nel ’94. Poi però, al netto di tutto quello che vogliamo (attacchi della magistratura, bunga bunga, condanne, figure di merda personali etc.), il Silvio nazionale alla fine cos’ha dimostrato? Di averci portati dove siamo ora, in estrema sintesi. Vedi? Il solo parlarne è tutta pubblicità per lui… Questo è il rischio di un partito con un solo uomo al comando. Da qui l’enorme menzogna, il mantra quotidiano dei giornali: “Grillo comanda lui”, anche se sanno benissimo che non è vero per come funziona il M5S. Non hanno esitato prima a paragonare Grillo a Stalin, e poi ad evocare la Repubblica di Weimar, gli hanno dato perfino dell’apologo del terrorismo sfruttando i suoi paradossi, quei maiali. E sottacendo invece che Il partito di Berlusconi è stato proprio il tipo di giocattolo che loro vorrebbero attribuire a Grillo. Lo raccontassero alla Meloni, tanto per dirne una, chi è stato quel signore all’interno del SUO (aggettivo possessivo) partito! Ne vuoi di più…?!?
Dall’altra parte (i rossi) cos’hanno dimostrato? Di essere una struttura super organizzata, temibilissima, e che utilizza ancora il sistema stalinista dell’attacco basato sulla menzogna. Uguali spiaccicati a quegli altri. Ma alla fine, caro Damy, i FATTI (non le chiacchiere) cos’hanno dimostrato? Che questi pezzi di m… sotto sotto erano d’accordo. Prima no, probabilmente. Prima – FORSE – si contrastavano veramente. Mi riferisco agli inizi dell’ultimo ventennio, quando ho abboccato anch’io. Negli ultimi venti anni il DP è stato ingigantito e le condizioni di vita (a 360°)peggiorate al punto da farmi rimpiangere amaramente la Prima Repubblica, Craxi compreso. Proprio quella che era finita con Mani Pulite. Ed è stato messo in mani diverse da quelle dei piccoli risparmiatori. Noi non siamo come il Jap che, pur con un debito superiore al nostro, suona tutt’altra musica. Quelli, col 90% del DP in mano giapponese e con la moneta sovrana, se ne possono sbattere di quelli come Rehn, Merkel, BCE, e compagnia cantante. Ergo: quei politici merdosi – i nostri – prima l’hanno fatta fuori dal vasino, e poi si sono dovuti mettere nelle mani dei creditori mettendo noi in braghe di tela. NOI, Damy, non loro.
Diverso sarebbe stato se ci fosse stata una ammissione di colpevolezza, o il benché minimo pentimento, se fossero stati onesti e non gli infami che sono. Forse li avrei perdonati. Ma noi, che siamo rappresentati da uno che fa la cresta sui biglietti aerei, dove dovremmo andare? E c’è chi lo incensa, ancora. Ed io, i conati, dovrei farli venire agli altri secondo te?
Per vent’anni hanno avuto tutto il tempo, quando sono stati al governo, di cambiare rotta. Ma questo non è nelle corde di alcun vecchio politico quando gli metti davanti un piatto di lenticchie. Quelli hanno VENDUTO la loro primogenitura, COMPRANDOSI E VENDENDOSI anche tra loro. Molto meglio le prostitute, quelle vere. Che hanno portato pure in parlamento, peraltro. Hanno VENDUTO il loro onore, lasciandoci scannare come agnelli sacrificali, immolati ai loro miserabili interessi, prima amcora che agli interessi dei pupari finanziari. Ci hanno soggiogati perfino agli interessi dei cosiddetti “alleati”, che ci usano come affittacamere e portaerei permanente. Questo è avvenuto in Italia, se ci vogliamo raccontare la verità. Ecco perché per me sono uguali. E a colore unico: quello dello sterco.
Hanno avuto gioco facile però. E questo lo si deve solo a NOI. Che tra un lamento e l’altro abbiamo mantenuto le loro rendite di posizione. Quindi 60 milioni di persone, che li avrebbero potuti polverizzare con una scorreggia, si sono lasciati intrappolare e corrompere dal loro apparato imbonitore, giornali e TV (per venire a te) che, come vedi sono ancora a loro asserviti.
In questo momento, più che un elogio di Renzi (come dici) si parla dell’aver MATATO qualcuno. Ed è la stessa demonizzazione dell’avversario utilizzata dai vari piddini di turno al governo, ma anche il leitmotiv del Berlusca sui comunisti che mangiano i bambini. Questa tecnica viene ora utilizzata da cdx e csx nei confronti del terzo soggetto politico, materializzatosi alle 2013 come PRIMO partito per numero di voti. Un pericolo MORTALE per loro! Si sono sentiti mancare il terreno sotto i piedi ed hanno unito le forze. Questa, e lo dico da mo’, la mia lettura delle “larghe intese” in Italia. Ben diverse da quelle dei tedeschi. Il solito polpettone raffazzonato per restare a galla. L’interesse del popolo bue, ovviamente, era l’ultima cosa a cui pensare per quei veri e propri MACELLAI PROFESSIONISTI. E così siamo finiti MATATI noi, il popolo: i veri sconfitti. Il 90% di noi, consapevolmente o meno, li ha lasciati lì a massacrarci. Questo, al paese mio, si chiama assenza totale, “ineludibile” (come dice una persona a me cara), di apparato testicolare. E chi sbaglia, sempre al paese mio, è giusto che paghi. Mi spiace per quel 10% che comprende anche me, ma queste sono le regole. Se fossimo violenti e organizzati saremmo in numero sufficiente per un colpo di stato armato. Nessun esercito potrebbe fermare 6 milioni di “soldati” sul loro territorio. Abbiamo invece puntato sulla ragionevolezza sperando di convincere anche gli altri. I nostri eletti hanno restituito i rimborsi e mensilmente si privano di quello che invece gli altri: trattengono mentre rubano anche a noi. Ma l’Italia, purtroppo, è nazione il cui popolo è troppo avvezzo alla “furbizia” e al misero interesse personale, per apprezzare questi gesti. Neanche questo ha funzionato, Damy: siamo un popolo di merda. Lasciatelo dire da uno che ha davvero girato mezzo mondo. Non avrei mai pensato di dovermi vergognare di essere un italiano, credimi.
Gli italiani di oggi invece, ominicchi e quaqquaraquà da quattro soldi, godono solo di ciò che i media propinano loro. Non scherzo affatto quando parlo di componente onanistica. Tu mi parli di Vespa ed io non posso trattenere il voltastomaco. Ho seguito dal PC in tempo reale la sua trasmissione fino alle tre del mattino, dopo le elezioni. Vespa, ad ogni nuovo exit poll, ad ogni nuova proiezione (in media ogni 8/10 minuti) non ha perso occasione per sottolineare il delta tra risultati del Pd e M5S. FI era come se non esistesse: diceva il dato e basta. Avrà ripetuto il nome di Grillo un milione di volte. Questo è Vespa, e questa è la Rai che gli da il suo ricco piatto di minestra. S’è preso la sua rivincita personale, su un servizio pagato da tutti, nei confronti di Grillo intervistato la sera prima. Grillo era stato un fiume in piena. Aveva polverizzato la vecchia classe dirigente fino al punto che Vespa, guardandosi bene dal replicare sulle verità che diceva Grillo, gli fa: “ma questa è un intervista, non un comizio, eh!” e l’altro: “certo che è un comizio, mica vengo qui a farmi intervistare da te!”. Ecco: questa è la differenza tra forma e sostanza. Se quei toni non sono piaciuti alla gente, peggio per la gente. Si tengano quegli altri, perché quelli meritano, vasellina compresa.
A proposito, hai detto che stavi per votare M5S e che è bastato il riferimento a Berlinguer per farti cambiare idea. Ma non hai detto a chi hai dato il voto. E allora…?
X Dami Eku
Se oggi Matteo Renzi fondasse un suo partito personale che potremmo chiamare per esempio Forza Renzi,giusto per stare in tema di FI,diventerebbe il primo partito,forse con la stessa (o più) percentuale ottenuta alle Europee.
Il calcolo è semplice.
Dal PD raccoglierebbe il 50% dei voti del partito.
Prenderebbe tutti i voti degli ex Montiani.
Tutti i voti del NCD.
Prenderebbe un buon 75% dei voti di FI.
Prenderebbe una grande fetta dei Grillini.
Anche dalla Lega raccatterebbe parecchio.
Per ultimo prenderebbe in bel 50% di quelli che oggi si sono astenuti.
Lascio a te il conteggio del totale.
Ciao ciao.
Franco Epifanio
Salvatore Franco il 27 maggio 2014 alle 20:58
1)perché poco più di 11 milioni di voti sono quasi il doppio di poco meno di 6,
Salvatore,ciàcià.”Resto sulla mia posizione!”(E analisi).
Vero,sono più di 11 milioni i voti del PD o renzi,questo è il problema.
Se alle europee del 2009 il PD”Senza Renzi” prende il 26 e oltre % e il 25 e oltre % alle nazionali del 2013 vuol dire che la forza del partito”PARTITO senza Renzi è tale”.
Mentre alle recenti europee il PD”Con Renzi” ha preso 2.500.000 in più,che assommandoli a 1.900.000 delle primarie,fanno 4.400.000,”se la matematica non è una opinione”.
Perchè questa analisi”secondo me”è a favore di Grillo? Perchè,gli elettori una volta tanto,hanno dato una indicazione di voto per COCIENZA e non per AGGREGAZIONE.Nel senso che hanno matato i partiti sostituendoli con i leader che li aspirava fiducia,quindi;dalla urne è uscito il voto individuale.
Faccio un altro es.pratico e facile:Renzi senza il PD e con un partito INDIVIDUALE avrebbe preso 11 milioni e più voti o 4.400.000 ricavati da una analisi,anche se teorica?.
E la smettino tutti i giornalisti di inneggiare il nome di Renzi,l’unico vincitore.
La vittoria di Renzi,è come gli scudetti ultimi vinti dall’Inter senza avversari per averli prima MATATI!!!Infatti:Berlusconi è stato MATATO!!! Quindi ha partecipato a concorrere con il 20% delle sue possibilità che conosciamo.
Salvatore,secondo me:l’errore di Grillo è stato nell’aver esagerato dopo il PORTA A PORTA.Non avesse fatto altre uscite e sparate cazzate tipo”BERLINGUER”,credo avrebbe preso molto più voti.Infatti,da Vespa aveva convinto me nel votarlo,poi…
Ciàcià,buona giornata “SIMPATICONE!!!”
@DamyEku il 27 maggio 2014 alle 17:11:
Fermo restando l’accanimento giornalistico notato da entrambi, non posso accontentarti, Damy:
1)perché poco più di 11 milioni di voti sono quasi il doppio di poco meno di 6,
2)perché stiamo parlando di 3 soggetti politici confrontabili, almeno sul piano elettorale (come risulta dai 3 simboli sulla scheda),
3) perché le questioni pregresse del Pd, scelte strategiche comprese, c’entrano solo parzialmente con questo risultato, visto a 360° – Per me.
Il problema dell’Italia – sempre per me – sono gli italioti autolesionisti e cagasotto, che hanno abboccato (e non solo al PD) = 80% della metà degli aventi diritto, + 100% dell’altra metà astenutasi.
Per cui:
a)risultato finale valido = 4:1 per gli altri (che per me sono uguali),
b)sconfitta, invece = 1:9 per uno che si sente italiano (e non italiota),
c) giocando in casa, per giunta.
Detto impietosamente: dovrei mandare giù che cosa, Damy? i “si.. vabbè.. però..” di chi si lamenta sempre e poi continua a votare l’infamia ?!?
Ps a proposito dei pennivendoli:
si stanno attaccando anche alla dichiarazione di Grillo, su ciò che avrebbe fatto dopo le elezioni se il M5S avesse preso meno voti che alle politiche.
Ecco.. se li vedi: prima fai un bel respiro Damy, profondo, così non ti scappa neanche una virgola del mio messaggio. E poi digli – da parte mia e dei miei – che possono attaccarsi al c… (“autonomamente” o “a vicenda”, che è + di moda) e tirare forte. Ammesso che ne abbiano anche una parvenza in dotazione, cosa di cui dubito.
Mi raccomando la precisione, Damy: conto su di te.
Buona serata.
Salve tutti!?
Letto su quasi tutti i quotidiani importanti che:Grillo è stato un flop,Grillo è stato matato,Grillo ha perso,Grillo una tragedia,Grillo è stato…Grillo è stato…Grillo è…
Mi domando su quale analisi hanno sviluppato una scemenza tale tutti gli intellettie giornalisti di ogni specie.
Vediamo di tracciare qualche semplice analisi per contrastare catapultare la vittoria del Pd o renzi!?.
Risultati definitivi delle Primarie del Partito Democratico dell’8 dicembre. Hanno votato 2.814.881 elettori del Pd in Italia e all’estero: Matteo Renzi ha ottenuto il 67, 55% di preferenze; Gianni Cuperlo il 18,21% e Giuseppe Civati il 14,24%.
http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.partitodemocratico.it%2Fdoc%2F263318%2Fprimarie-pd-2013-risultati-definitivi.htm&ei=50KEU76WJa-e7Ab12IGQCA&usg=AFQjCNEm0c8GfYfaLBmTs6MGzOdqTiNDrA&bvm=bv.67720277,d.ZGU
Notato qualcosa?
Renzi ha preso il 67,55% di voti,pari a circa 1.900.000 “voti PD” su 2.814.881,a questi vanno aggiunti i 15 punti che Renzi ha attirato in più nel PD portandolo dal 25,42% elezioni nazionali al 40,8% elezioni recenti europee.Se Bersani prese 8.644.187 voti sul 25,42% quanti voti ha preso Renzi dal restante 15%?.
Se 11.172.861-8.644.187=2.528.674+1.900.000 voti delle primarie fanno in totale fanno 4.428.674.Grillo ne ha presi 5.792.865 che meno i 4.428.674 di Renzi fanno 1.364.191 a favore di Grillo.
Tale analisi è tratta dall’osservazione che alle europee gli elettori hanno indirizzato il voto non ai partiti ma direttamente al loro leader.Infatti:FI non è un partito,5s neanche,il PD invece,è un partito…Allora come si fa a confrontare il voto di un partito con il voto dato a a Grillo per individualismo?.
Salvatore,tu che tratti Grillo o i grillini,perchè non fai loro presente tale analisi,e,quindi;che il vero vincitore in tutta l’Europa non è altro che Grillo?
Ho poco tempo:buona serata
@ Al2014
Non si può focalizzare il problema sottolineando il discorso su Berlinguer, direi come Reo. Allo stesso modo non ce la possiamo cavare dicendo che è tutta colpa dei comunisti, o che Berlusconi sia un “ribollito”. O “rincoglionito” come leggo da qualche… “altra parte”. Né l’uno né l’altro, mio caro. Io, i traditori, li chiamo con il loro nome. E se vogliamo parlare di
A)risultati elettorali (come mi pare tu voglia fare): allora i peggiori non sono nemmeno i “komunisti”. Ma, detta fuori dai denti, TUTTI MA PROPRIO TUTTI quelli che hanno consentito che vincesse il Partito Unico dell’Euro (a cui il PD è stato da sempre funzionale, per carità..). Partito, quello dell’ euro e di questa UE, di cui però anche il Berlusca FA PARTE, neh. Non avendo mai fatto CONTRASTO REALE alla finanza tecnica (se non con qualche battuta idiota, che si era rimangiato subito) che alla fine è riuscita a mettere in ginocchio le nazioni. Tra queste
B)Italia: è la nazione i cui abitanti hanno dimostrato soltanto la loro vigliaccheria. Ha vinto la PAURA inculcata dai media. La paura che le prebende dei politici (soprattutto quelli al seguito di quelli nazionali, fino all’ultimo portaborse del politico locale e dei “sindacalisti-mortacci-loro-quanti-sono”), ergo quelle degli statali parassiti (cioè i più, oggi, mi tocca dire a denti stretti) e dei pensionati, potessero subire qualche “ritocchino” al ribasso. Un paio di milioni i primi; 3,6 milioni i secondi. Che vanno almeno raddoppiati se sposati, o triplicati se hanno un figlio in maggiore età. Vogliamo dire una quindicina di milioni, come minimo, compresi i minus habentes? Calcolo per difetto, eh. Vogliamo ignorare i voti di scambio distribuiti a macchia di leopardo “dall’Alpi alle Piramidi, dal Manzanarre al Reno”? Senza contare quelli del voto “ideologico”: quelli che vanno a votare sempre. Il cosiddetto zoccolo duro, rosso finchè vuoi MA NON SOLO. Guardata così – anche senza scomodare il sospetto di brogli – i numeri mi cominciano a tornare.
C) astensionisti: gli italiani peggiori di tutti, come sempre, loro ed i cattivi maestri (qualche “maestrino/a” si trova sempre pure sui blog, se lo/a cerchi anche altrove) che li hanno invitati a farsi la gita fuori porta della domenica, o andarsene a tifare per la squadretta del cu..ore in uno stadio. Sapendo benissimo che ogni voto non dato era un voto DATO invece a quelli che sono lì da sempre.
D)nuovo-che-avanza-Renzi: il fanfarone di turno ha raccolto solo quello che altri, prima di lui, avevano seminato. Destra “moderata” compresa (poi se qualcuno – contestualizzando senza dire troppe minchiate – mi spiega che cazzo significa “moderato”… gliene sarò grato). Perché proprio Renzi? Elementare Watson! perché incarna perfettamente quello che l’italiano medio desidera, vuole, anela fino allo spasmo orgasmico più di ogni altra cosa: essere fregato con destrezza (prima)dal politico di stampo “DC”, per lamentarsi DOPO-oh-oh. Il venditore della Stanhome, per capirci, è il carismatico standard per l’italiota.
E)Berlusconi (leader della stessa razza di cui sopra): in nome del SUO interesse personale (corroborato dal suo ego arcinoto), ha sacrificato ancora una volta l’unica possibilità che aveva il suo partito: togliersi dai coglioni una volta per tutte. Altro che ribollito, ma sei matto? Però i giornali non lo dicono, eh Al? Mica dicono che uno come il Berlusca lo puoi far fuori in due secondi: basta che “qualcuno dall’alto” mandi “uno che vende” e “uno che compra” (i suoi titoli ri-quotati a prezzi di saldo). E gli finisce come con la Sterlina di Soros…
Ed invece, macchestrano… macchestrano…
…sul mercato azionario: “Bene Banche e Mediaset – Piazza Affari arriva a fine mattinata con segno moderatamente positivo, estendendo il rialzo innescato ieri dall’affermazione del Partito Democratico alle elezioni europee, che è stata letta come un segnale di stabilità e ha allontanato il pericolo antieuropeista rappresentato da M5s.”
http://borsaitaliana.it.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idITKBN0E714O20140527
Non succederà nulla di eclatante adesso, è ancora troppo presto. Succederà un po’ più in là. Per ora – mi ci sarei tagliato i santissimi se non fosse stato così – i primi… “segnali rassicuranti”, sempre alla Borsa di Milano, sul mercato obbligazionario. Lo spread, quel sant’uomo dello SPREAD, stamattina ha detto… “sì” (come il suo collega della Dal Monte).
Understood, my friend? Altro che le stronzate dei
F)giornali: preferiscono parlare invece – QUESTO in testa a tutti per i noti motivi – di Renzi che “asfalta” Grillo. Basta non sottolineare troppo – of course – che il M5S è sempre il secondo partito italiano. Hanno invece rispolverato fino all’ultimo, come prima delle politiche, l’incidente d’auto per usare il termine “pluriomicida”. O quello che aveva “piallato” una famiglia. Come se si trattasse di un serial killer. Il loro DATORE DI LAVORO – invece – è rimasto “il Cav”. Così – abbi fede, Al, perché accadrà prima o poi – qualcuno in redazione si sveglierà una mattina con un geniale “Santo-Subito”, giusto per far ripartire l’onanismo di gruppo. E poi ci chiediamo ancora perché siamo al 70° posto per libertà d’informazione…
Ho sperato che si potesse far saltare – presupposto NECESSARIO (ancorchè non sufficiente) – il politicume che ha portato in Italia certi curatori fallimentari. Che stanno già inventariando i nostri beni artistici dopo che quei traditori (di destra – ebbene sì, mio caro Al – di cosiddetta “destra” al novembre 2011, anche se sembra che non si voglia ammetterlo neanche sotto tortura) avevano FAVORITO ALLA GRANDE l’ingresso di elementi come Monti, per poi scaricare il tutto sul komu-Nap e sui compagnucci “tiratori di giacchette”.
Lavoro “egregio”, quello di Monti, per certi aspetti: ancorchè ben assuefatti (noi), erano anni che qualcuno non ci faceva un MAZZO COSI’, come quello che ci ha fatto il bocconiano. E propedeutico a quello che sarebbe successo dopo. E che succederà ora. Vadano pure a raccontarlo altrove – i pennivendoli – che non siamo già come la Grecia che mette in vendita le isole che gli sceicchi compreranno.
http://www.ansa.it/mare/notizie/rubriche/uominiemare/2014/05/19/crisi-grecia-in-vendita-pure-lisola-di-elafonisos_bc5cd204-9ca4-4745-bec9-2b5bfb63a1c5.html
?) mariolino (che c’entra, mi dirai…): beh.. per te forse non sarà il massimo della simpatia, ma aveva ragione lui a dire che nulla sarebbe cambiato. Ed ho avuto torto io a nutrire speranze su un popolo, meritevole invece solo di essere schiacciato dopo essersi fatto infinocchiare così a lungo. A destra e a manca, è proprio il caso di dire. Solo un italiano su dieci ha nutrito almeno una speranza. Per me i restanti non sono molto diversi gli uni dagli altri, visto che i colori politici non esistevano da tempo, se non ci vogliamo prendere per il cu..ore. Mentre gli ipocriti, i venduti, e gli imbecilli tifosi dicevano il contrario.
G)io (massì, giusto per mettere una lettera in più) mi chiedo soltanto: lasciamo perdere i media – che almeno hanno avuto MOTIVO CONCRETO per farlo – ma tutti gli altri? Quei 4 italiani su 5 (arrotondando) che pensano di essersi divisi le briciole di qualcosa… cosa si sono divisi, in realtà? o quegli altri “intelligentoni” (5 su 5, sempre arrotondando) che si dicono “nauseati dalla politica”, su cosa hanno interagito, con i loro conati? Soltanto sul destino che li aspetta: di merda, se va bene, perché di quel vomito si nutriranno. Vedi gli
H) 80 euro (fittizi anche quelli, per restare in tema): una prova generale, per chi vuole intendere. Ci si compra con poco, siòre e siòri: basta un po’ di fumo negli occhi e qualche pezzetto di gambero rancido sull’amo. Questa è stata la prova d’orchestra, insomma. L’italiota ha dimostrato, ancora una volta, di non saper tenere la schiena dritta come quelli della Le Pen o di Farage. Da cui la
I)analisi minima di questo umile mortale: il francese e l’inglese – mediamente – tra le gambe hanno qualcosa in più dell’italiano. E pure il tedesco, visti i risultati della Merkel. L’italiano medio – invece – ha mandato in Europa la Kyenge del Pd e Fitto di Forza Italia, tanto per dirne due. Ergo:
quelli-si-merita.
Reo Silvio 22.20,
Sottoscrivo il tuo post.
Aggiungo di mio che anche in Italia finalmente si va verso un bipartitismo tipo europeo,ossia,tanto per semplificare,popolari e socialdemocratici.
Se si arriverà a questo un grandissimo merito va dato a Matteo Renzi.
Franco Epifanio
Al2014 il 26 maggio 2014 alle 09:00:
Eviterei di fare hahaha sui colpi di stato militari, ci sono stati vari progetti, abortiti magari perchè la Cia non ha dato il permesso, al contrario di altri paesi.
Oppure è uno di quelli che amano il sangue per le strade e magari i metodi tipo Videla e company, in Ucraina cè posto, ma li sparano davvero.
L’Italia è ferma a Berlinguer??
Ma no Al, per me hai scritto una minchiata e tirato fuori un post tanto lungo quanto inutile.
E dimostri che quello fermo a Berlinguer sei tu e quelli come te che ragionano ancora in termini di comunismo e di anti-comunismo.
In effetti, Berlinguer è stato tirato fuori (maldestramente) da Grillo il penultimo giorno della campagna elettorale e Renzi si è sentito in dovere di rispondergli. Punto. Comunque è un episodio tutto sommato marginale che non ha inciso per nulla nell’esito elettorale.
Nel merito, Berlinguer è un uomo politico di tutt’altra epoca e i suoi eventuali meriti o demeriti non c’entrano un fico secco con gli uomini e le situazioni della politica di oggi.
In realtà, se vogliamo fare un parallelo con politica del passato l’Italia è ferma alla DC, altro che a Berlinguer!
Certo una DC un po’ rimodernata e che ha la faccia giovane ed accattivante di Renzi, ma se vedi contenuti, modi di fare politica ed estrazioni culturali dei principali leader di quello si tratta.
La sinistra italiana è finita da tempo ed ormai non esiste più. Stesso discorso vale per la destra di cui ormai non ci sono che tracce del tutto labili (sia della destra “sociale” che di quella “liberale”).
Io da tempo vedo la presenza di due partiti post-democristiani, uno un po’ vagamente di centrodestra, l’altro vagamente di centrosinistra, che si contendono il potere. E la gente vota loro in maggioranza; ripeto: per me, siamo fermi alla DC. Il polo della protesta di Grillo forse è già finito, perché è dura spuntarla contro tutti questi “moderati” post-democristitani di cui pullula la politica italiana.
L’Italia è questa roba qui e c’è ben poco da fare, credo.
Saluti.
Le buone notizie sono due: la prima è che l’altro giorno sono stati liberati tutti i secessionisti, la seconda è che si è ulteriormente incrementata (+ 8%) la percentuale di quelli che votano col portafoglio anziché con la scheda, ovvero: gli astensionisti.
Se Renzi e chi l’ha votato si fermassero un’attimo a guardare in faccia la realtà vedrebbero che il loro 40 è sì un 40 (che oltretutto data la consistente discrepanza con i sondaggi pre-elettorali puzza di brogli lontano un miglio, come da tradizione) ma della metà di quelli che sarebbero dovuti (secondo loro) andare a votare. Onestamente se fossi nei panni di quei cialtroni più che festeggiare inizierei seriamente a preoccuparmi del fatto che quel tipo di stato nazionale è alla frutta, siamo ai colpi di coda e questi pagliacci (complice l’informazione di regime -nessuno escluso-) fanno finta che sia tutto normale.
Qualsiasi analisi che viene fatta su queste votazioni lascia il tempo che trova, il campione non è rappresentativo se non di una piccolissima parte di persone irriducibili che probabilmente nemmeno quando saranno alla fame si renderanno conto che è assolutamente deleterio votare partiti di un sistema socialista e dittatoriale quando è proprio quest’ultimo che va disintegrato.
Io non ho fretta. Chi la dura la vince.
Un saluto .
L’ITALIA E’ FERMA A BERLINGUER!!
Fatemi capire, ma come può un individuo minimamente sano nel cervello “rivalutare” un morto di sonno e piagnone incapace come Enrico Berlinguer?
Uno che induceva al suicidio solo a vederlo, più triste di una canzone di Tenco ed Endrigo, un mezzo prete rosso ultra-falsone, che sapeva solo parlare di austerità, moralità (quando lui e il suo partito beccavano tonnellate di rubli da Mosca, per mantenere un apparato di partito di decine di migliaia di funzionari), serietà, e non ha mai fatto nulla di nulla, non c’è un solo atto politico per cui lo si ricordi.
Nel 1973, poiché se la faceva sotto per paura del golpe militare (e ogni sera dormiva in una casa diversa dei kompagnucci, per paura che di notte venissero i militari a prenderlo, ahahahahah!!!), s’inventò il compromesso storico con la DC, che poi ha solo creato la voragine di spesa pubblica e consociativismo, che ha rovinato le casse dello stato. Poi era anche fuori dal mondo, ignorante di economia come una capra, come tutti i comunisti: nel 1980 in un’intervista al Corriere disse che la Borsa era una cosa “immorale” perché c’era la speculazione (sic!). Nel 1976 s’inventò anche il (n)euro-comunismo e la “terza via” con francesi e spagnoli, altra boiata di parole fumose e senza senso, mentre l’URSS crollava a pezzi, loro pensavano a una “via di mezzo” che esisteva solo nei loro sogni.
E poi, nel 1980 sostenne anche l’occupazione della Fiat, fallita miseramente e rottamata con la marcia dei 40.000 impiegati e quadri, che fece a pezzi la CGIL.
Ovviamente, da ottimo perdente, Berlinguer sostenne anche quel ridicolo referendum sulla scala mobile, per 4 soldi in busta paga, che furono proprio i lavoratori a bocciare.
E però Berlinguer piaceva a tutti i falliti italiani, perché era un piagnone e fallito come loro, invidiosi di chi lavora, fa ed intraprende, anche molto moralista a casa degli altri.
Perché i suoi parenti il caro Enrico li ha sistemati tutti! A cominciare dalla “zarina”: l’arrogante Bianca, che da secoli imperversa su Rai3, la tv feudo dei kompagnucci ex Telekabul.
Quindi, in effetti è sbagliato dire che Berlinguer non ha fatto nulla: nulla per l’Italia e la politica, ma per i suoi famigli ha fatto davvero tanto.
MA CHE BRAVI, I TAFAZZI ITALIANI!
Evidentemente la gente ama randellarsi gli zebedei. Qualcuno non ha ancora capito che un partito di MERDA come il pd (partito dementi), che sa solo derubarli e tassare a tutto spiano, per poi sprecare i soldi e darli agli amici, è la massima causa della crisi italiana. Eppure continuano a votarli! Non gli basta avere visto come finiva quando c’erano Prodi, Visco e Padoa Schioppa nel 2007, non gli basta aver visto come è finita a Milano con Pisapippa, non gli basta vedere come finisce quando vanno su sinistri come Bassolino e De Magistris a Napoli, o Crocetta e Orlando a Palermo, ecc…
e cioè + tasse + povertà + sprechi + disoccupati + crisi + burocrazia + aziende che chiudono, ecc.
Noooooo!!! Ogni volta si fanno infinocchiare, gli basta vedere una faccia nuova, per votarla, per poi puntualmente finire nella cacca.
Contenti loro….
Sicuramente è colpa anche di Berlusconi, che ormai è bollito e non ha mai fatto la cosa essenziale: fondare un VERO partito liberaldemocratico, anti tasse, anti sprechi, ma ha sempre concentrato su di sé l’intera attività di FI.
E comunque, mentre l’intera l’Europa manda a farsi fottere i ladroni dell’euro, l’Italia (che + ha sofferto per colpa di piddini ed euroladri) in “controdemenza” vuole tenerseli stretti.
Bene, tenetevi pure Renzi, le tasse che vi espropriano anche le mutande, i rom che vengono a farsi i bisogni nelle fontane delle piazze fiorentine più belle, e godeteveli!
Fabrizio, e anche reo Silvio, dell’Austria mi piace sopratutto la torta sacher e la musica di Bach e Mozart, le teorie economiche iperliberiste direi per niente.
Mentre Fabrizio si dichiara anarco capitalista io sono anarchico e basta, ma sò benissimo che non siamo pronti per un mondo del genere.
L’uomo è ancora molto “acerbo” per un mondo non basato sulla sopraffazione, che non và intesa solo nel senso della forza, ma a 360 gradi.
Di conseguenza mi tocca subire le angherie dello stato, perchè credo fermamente che quelle dei privati lasciati del tutto a briglia sciolta possano essere ben peggiori, la vita me lo ha fatto toccare con mano varie volte, perchè siamo carogne dentro, un pò tutti compreso io.
Nell’ipotetico “libero” mercato cosa impedirebbe ai padroni, che ci sarebbero eccome, di fare il loro porco comodo come sempre hanno fatto nel passato quando lo potevano fare più di ora, il cosidetto potere contrattuale del popolo bue rasenta lo zero, ma quello assoluto per me.
Forse sarò troppo pessimista, ma mi pare che la storia mi dia ragione, non credo neanche di detenere la verità, è solo quello che credo io. Fabrizio sà dove sono e cosa stò facendo, posso affermare che un covo di rufiani spie e leccaculi come qui non l’ho mai trovato prima, la guerra trà poveri impera sovrana, figurati come sono quelli che hanno un pochino di potere, trasportalo nel mondo “grande” e vengono i brividi anche uno ormai vissuto come me.
Direi che tutti abbiamo il difetto del giudice della canzone di De Andrè, e senza neanche essere nani, per quello il mondo funziona così.
Mariolino del 23 ore 21 24.
Azz… Mariolino, che ti sta succedendo?
Mi starai mica, pian pianino, diventando “austriaco”… ih ih.
Un saluto .
Reo Silvio,
“Ma che cavolo scrivi, de paoli?? Al contrario secondo la tua “logica” non esisterebbero più i commercianti e nessuno avrebbe “interesse” a vendere nulla perché tanto quello che fa un qualsiasi commerciante lo può fare uguale un qualsiasi altro privato cittadino…”
Questa tua frase si contraddice, perché se quello che fa un qualsiasi commerciante lo fa “uguale” un privato cittadino, si ottiene che tutti diventano commercianti, e tutti hanno interesse a vendere, l’esatto opposto di quanto affermi, ovvero che “non esisterebbero più i commercianti..” e che “nessuno avrebbe interesse a vendere nulla”.
La parola di troppo che insinui (non so se in malafede o no, ma non importa) nella mia logica, e che invece io non metterei mai, è la parola “uguale”.
Tu dici: “..quello che fa un qualsiasi commerciante lo può fare uguale un qualsiasi altro privato cittadino”, è impossibile (secondo la mia logica) che io possa aver detto che quello che fa un qualsiasi commerciante lo può fare UGUALE un qualsiasi privato cittadino, io ho detto che qualsiasi privato cittadino lo può fare, ma non “uguale”, non con gli stessi risultati.
È vero che siamo tutti commercianti, infatti chiunque di noi compra e chiunque di noi vende, ma non è vero che nel farlo siamo tutti uguali: c’è chi è più bravo, chi (come dici giustamente tu riferendoti al gioielliere) si specializza, e chi lo è meno o per niente, questi ultimi difficilmente riusciranno a fare buoni profitti.
Questo vale per tutti, gioiellieri compresi, non è affatto detto che un gioielliere “guadagni assolutamente” perché magari si trova in competizione con gioiellieri più bravi di lui.
“…visto che io, pur non facendo nulla di tutto ciò, avrei sostanzialmente quasi le stesse possibilità di vendere quel gioiello d’oro ad un prezzo superiore a quanto lo ho pagato e così guadagnarci??”
Sicuro, tu HAI le stesse possibilità, ma NON HAI le stesse capacità, e per ottenerle ti devi come minimo “sbattere” come ha fatto il gioielliere, queste sono differenze importanti che vanno prese in considerazione.
L’essere superficiali porta ad un’errata comprensione e quindi conclusione.
Riguardo alle mie “astruserie mentali” fai come al solito una gran confusione (anche qui non so se in malafede o meno, …irrilevante).
Sono proprio io a volere regole mirate al rispetto dei principi naturali: proprietà privata, rispetto dell’individuo e libertà di scelta, tutte cose che uno statalista tende a bypassare o ignorare in nome dello stato (socialista).
Mariolino, tu non scrivi “cacchiate”, ma cose di senso, invece de paoli le spara sempre più grosse. In effetti nel suo post delle 10.38 aveva anche scritto cose quasi accettabili e commentabili, nel post successivo ha raggiunto il primato della cacchiata ipergalattica. E il bello è che dice che mi starebbe “massacrando” e poi che sarei io “incoerente”…
L’incredibile de paoli scrive:
“Dimmi un po’ una cosa, secondo te chi ti ha venduto quel gioiello nuovo perché lo ha fatto?
Stando a quello che dici non avrebbe avuto interesse a venderlo, perché secondo la tua logica siccome tu non sei in grado di trovare un acquirente che lo compri ad un prezzo maggiore di quanto l’hai pagato non lo è nemmeno lui” (!!??)
Ma che cavolo scrivi, de paoli?? Al contrario secondo la tua “logica” non esisterebbero più i commercianti e nessuno avrebbe “interesse” a vendere nulla perché tanto quello che fa un qualsiasi commerciante lo può fare uguale un qualsiasi altro privato cittadino…Insomma il gioielliere che fa questo di mestiere e ci deve assolutamente guadagnare e, per questo, conosce bene il mercato del suo settore, ha contatto con i grossisti, va alle fiere, compra all’ingrosso, sa quando e dove comprare al miglior prezzo, ha un negozio, una bella vetrina dove mette in mostra il meglio della mercanzia, ti offre il servizio di impacchettarlo se devi fare un regalo, ecc. ecc…fa tutto questo, ma sta solo perdendo tempo e sta investendo inutilmente in quell’attività, visto che io, pur non facendo nulla di tutto ciò, avrei sostanzialmente quasi le stesse possibilità di vendere quel gioiello d’oro ad un prezzo superiore a quanto lo ho pagato e così guadagnarci??
È questa la tua “logica”???
Ma io voglio essere più comprensivo di te e non voglio “massacrati” e dire che sei completamente rincitrullito, per cui voglio provare ad immaginare il “ragionamento” di fondo che starebbe dietro questa tua “logica” (assurda).
Nelle astruserie mentali che ti sei creato, forse tu immagini davvero una società libera in tutto, senza stato (ovviamente), senza regole, ruoli o compiti predefiniti, senza monete “legali” o “imposte” (ari-ovviamente), insomma il paradiso del “libero mercato”, in cui tutti si scambiano tutto senza vincoli, intermediazioni di qualsiasi genere, in cui effettivamente tanti mestieri scomparirebbero (quello del commerciante, per esempio)…
Che dire? Una visione onirica e fantastica, però chissà magari un giorno…
Buona notte e sogni “d’oro” a tutti.
Visto che continua la discussione su oro e monete voglio dire qualche cacchiata pure io.
L’uso nell’antichità di usare l’oro come merce di scambio è dovuto ad alcuni fattori, esso è raro, è bello e praticamente incorruttibile, con poco peso si può dire che ha grande valore.
Nei tempi antichi inoltre non aveva un valore reale d’uso, visto che non serviva praticamente a niente di utile, neanche per fare armi o pentole, per quelle era molto meglio il bronzo e poi il ferro.
Quelli sono materiali veramente utili ma ingombranti, molto meglio dire che con un chilo di oro ci si comprano molte tonnellate di ferro assai più produttive, ma il ferro va usato e non tenuto in cassaforte, volevo dire che l’oro come la carta è un valore convenzionale perchè qualcuno ha deciso così, comunque sempre il potere, e con entrambi ci si compra le cose veramente utili, altrimenti saremmo ancora al baratto diretto.
Tutto quello che viene usato come moneta ha un valore convenzionale, e parecchio fittizio pure, che se non è supportato dal ferro conta relativamente, una volta quello delle spade, poi dei fucili e dopo del resto.
Gli americani si possono permettere di staampare tutti i dollari che vogliono, anche d’oro secondo me, perchè hanno tutti i “ferri ” necessari a farli inghiottire agli altri, e comprarci cosa vogliono, tanto lo prenderebbero lo stesso, come facevano i nostri progenitori con le legioni.
Smetteranno quando, come per i romani, si indeboliranno, e altri prenderanno il loro posto, ma voi li vedete, i cinesi sono pieni di debito estero americano, credete che vadano a reclamarlo, non credo proprio, basta far circolare qualche portaerei nel mar cinese meridionale e vedi come stanno zitti.
Ma non cè neanche bisogno, lo sanno da soli, mica sono scemi, i loro “soldi” credo che non li rivedranno mai più, perchè quello che conta, ora come nel passato, è la forza dell’acciaio, anche i nostri banchieri quando i re non li ridavano indietro l’oro prestato che facevano, zitti e mosca, inghiottivano il rospo e andavano avanti a strozzinare gli altri, quelli senza ferri.
Forse è una visione cinica, ma credo realistica, buonanotte.
Reo Silvio, abbi pazienza se continuo a massacrarti ma questa è troppo gustosa:
“Hai detto tu che se rivendo un gioiello d’oro (D’ORO, non sto parlando di banda stagnata) potrei anche riprendere qualcosa in più di quello che lo ho pagato”
Eh sì…, l’ho detto…, e lo ripeto.
Dimmi un po’ una cosa, secondo te chi ti ha venduto quel gioiello nuovo perché lo ha fatto?
Stando a quello che dici non avrebbe avuto interesse a venderlo, perché secondo la tua logica siccome tu non sei in grado di trovare un acquirente che lo compri ad un prezzo maggiore di quanto l’hai pagato non lo è nemmeno lui, e quindi te lo avrebbe venduto rimettendoci immagino…
“infatti quando poi uno ti chiede spiegazioni te ne esci con un “Questo non lo so””
E cosa avrei dovuto dirti? Come faccio a saperlo? Come posso sapere se troverai qualcuno disposto a comprare quel tuo gioiello ad un prezzo maggiore di quanto tu l’abbia pagato? e come potrei conoscere quel “qualcuno”?
L’unica cosa che però so con certezza è che non è impossibile, e lo dimostra il fatto che il gioielliere ha trovato te che lo hai comprato ad un prezzo maggiore di quanto l’abbia pagato lui.
Angelo Santagostino, ti spiego brevemente perché voglio una moneta libera.
Partendo dal fatto che il concetto di valore è soggettivo e che io e solo io lo possa valutare, non posso accettare che per i miei scambi mi venga imposta una unità di misura del valore ancorché modificabile da altri.
Per questo motivo non posso che arrivare alla conclusione che la perfezione sia una moneta libera.
Poi, personalmente mi andrebbe benissimo un gold-standard, se potessi lo sceglierei, ma allo stesso modo per principio, non mi sognerei mai di imporlo a qualcuno.
La moneta deve essere innanzitutto una scelta individuale, dopo, quando la maggior parte degli individui ha fatto scelte simili, la moneta diventa anche convenzione ma è una convenzione che deve partire dal basso, dall’individuo, ed anche in quel caso, quando la moneta diventa convenzione, questa non può essere imposta in alcun modo, devo continuare ad essere libero di scegliere.
Molto probabilmente avrò interesse ad effettuare i miei scambi con la moneta scelta dal mercato, e molto probabilmente lo farò, ma deve rimanere intatto il principio della libertà di scelta perché qualora la moneta (convenzione) scelta dal mercato, dovesse mostrare qualche “anomalia”, il mercato potendo scegliere, passerebbe rapidamente ad eleggere un’altra convenzione.
Spero tu abbia compreso il discorso. Io dò moltissima importanza al percorso che porta alla scelta di un mercato (che deve ovviamente essere libero).
Un saluto .
Reo Silvio dice:
“Il mercato è “obbligato” a usare le monete fiat nazionali? Diciamo anche di sì, ma ormai lo fa da anni senz’alcun problema, anzi marcia lo stesso alla grande…gli stati danno alle monete solo il crisma della legalità, ma il valore, le quotazioni, le oscillazioni, il rating delle economie è fatto tutto da organismi privati e non dagli stati e addirittura l’emissione concreta delle monete è fatta da banche centrali private che hanno anche partecipazioni nelle più grandi aziende e nei più grossi player che dominano il mercato.”
E poi aggiunge:
“Io non ho grandi certezze, né teorie da difendere, né ossessioni come te. So solo che il sistema “mercato”, ma anche quello degli “stati” non funziona per nulla e non mi piace affatto, ma mi rendo anche conto che non è facile trovare dei correttivi, però a quello sarei eventualmente interessato a discutere con chi ha qualcosa di alternativo (concreto) da proporre.”
Reo Silvio deciditi, o il mercato, pur essendo obbligato ad usare monete fiat, lo faccia da anni senza alcun problema e marcia alla grande, o non funziona per nulla…
Il mercato funziona sempre, né bene né male, lui funziona e basta. Il problema è COME funziona, vale a dire: le sue regole sono uguali per tutti?
Nell’attuale mercato NO. In un mercato libero Si.
Ora, non so se sia il tuo caso, forse si, però c’è gente che più che badare al “come” funziona il mercato, si sente in diritto di farlo funzionare “bene”, dove per “bene” si intende che debba ridistribuire a tutti la stessa ricchezza prescindendo dalle diverse capacità, operosità, ricchezze e volontà di scelta degli individui (vale anche per gli stati).
Quello però non è più un mercato, quella è una semplicissima dittatura dove qualcuno o qualcosa decide chi deve dare e chi deve prendere.
L’unica cosa che si possa pretendere da un mercato, perché possa essere definito tale, è che le sue naturali regole e meccanismi che lo fanno funzionare debbano riguardare TUTTI, belli e brutti, maschi e femmine, ricchi e poveri.
Giustizia, un libero mercato è giustizia per tutti, da non confondere con ricchezza per tutti.
Tornando a noi, non ti è mai venuto il dubbio che per riuscire a comprendere le mie proposte e risposte forse dovresti sviluppare prima una tua coerenza? E che per fare ciò dovresti come minimo aver ben chiaro “cosa vuoi” ed “in che modo vuoi ottenerlo”?
Uèèè De Paoli, stai diventando aggressivo? Bravo! Vai avanti così, almeno in tal modo ti sono davvero un po’ “utile”.
Comunque per me continui a scrivere “assurdità” (anzi stanno aumentando), sei prolisso, ma evasivo perchè non rispondi agli argomenti di cui, ti ho già detto, sono davvero interessato.
E ti avviso che io non ho tutto sto tempo da perdere (come te) e di certo non sto lì a continuare all’infinito questo botta e risposta che invece tu fai da anni con chi ti dà un minimo di spago. Io ho altro da fare e se non trovo le risposte agli argomenti (concreti) che mi interessano, taglio subito corto.
Qualcosina nel merito.
Il mercato è “obbligato” a usare le monete fiat nazionali? Diciamo anche di sì, ma ormai lo fa da anni senz’alcun problema, anzi marcia lo stesso alla grande…gli stati danno alle monete solo il crisma della legalità, ma il valore, le quotazioni, le oscillazioni, il rating delle economie è fatto tutto da organismi privati e non dagli stati e addirittura l’emissione concreta delle monete è fatta da banche centrali private che hanno anche partecipazioni nelle più grandi aziende e nei più grossi player che dominano il mercato.
Per cui la moneta fiat e il “potere” (ormai quasi nullo) degli stati sarà un grave problema per gli sfigati come te che hanno ormai quest’ossessione e vogliono combattere questa crociata, ma lascia stare il “mercato”, il quale, per quanto non “libero”, va avanti lo stesso e in esso fanno tutti affari d’oro anche (e a maggior ragione) con la moneta fiat e con gli stati che non contano più nulla.
Hai detto tu che se rivendo un gioiello d’oro (D’ORO, non sto parlando di banda stagnata) potrei anche riprendere qualcosa in più di quello che lo ho pagato. Questa è una delle tante cavolate che butti lì e infatti quando poi uno ti chiede spiegazioni te ne esci con un “Questo non lo so”. Il mio discorso, del resto, era riferito anche ai lingotti d’oro (e non solo ai gioielli) e su questo non mi hai risposto proprio.
“Perché invece non intervenire abbassando pressione fiscale?” Certo che si deve intervenire abbassando la pressione fiscale, ma stiamo parlando di monete e vuoi negare che monete forti avvantaggiano solo le aziende che si riforniscono di materie prime all’estero, mentre tutte quelle che vivono di esportazioni, ma anche in altri settori (l’incoming turistico, per esempio) sono assolutamente svantaggiate dall’avere una moneta forte??
Ma questo è l’ABC sul tema per cui non mi va proprio di discutervi su più di tanto.
Io non ho grandi certezze, né teorie da difendere, né ossessioni come te. So solo che il sistema “mercato”, ma anche quello degli “stati” non funziona per nulla e non mi piace affatto, ma mi rendo anche conto che non è facile trovare dei correttivi, però a quello sarei eventualmente interessato a discutere con chi ha qualcosa di alternativo (concreto) da proporre.
Per cui, se su questo hai qualcosa da dire, bene, altrimenti trovati qualcun altro con cui perdere tempo.
Mezzo saluto .
Reo Silvio, ormai ho la certezza: non sei in grado di ragionare, o di capire l’italiano.
Faccio un breve riassunto:
Tu dici riferendoti al valore:
““…come quello della carta, che non vale quasi niente, ma se poi diventa “banconota” vale molto, ma molto di più.”
Io ti rispondo:
“Questo è vero solo quando quella banconota certifica l’esistenza di un bene che effettivamente esiste nella disponibilità di chi emette la banconota. In quel caso il mercato riconosce alla banconota il valore per il fatto che sa benissimo che la banconota e il bene che rappresenta sono interscambiabili: io posso cambiare in qualsiasi momento la banconota col bene reale che rappresenta, nella quantità espressa dalla banconota”
Poi tu replichi:
“Qui non ho capito a cosa ti riferisci, non credo ti riferisci al gold standard che sai bene che non c’è più da diversi decenni, per cui se non è l’oro il “bene che effettivamente esiste nella disponibilità di chi emette la banconota” quale sarebbe questo bene?”
Ora ti rispondo: mi riferisco al caso in cui una banconota certifichi l’esistenza di un bene. Solo in quel caso si può considerare la banconota un valore, come per esempio un gold-standard al 100%.
Ora invece, con la moneta fiat, dietro a quella che tu chiami banconota non c’è nessun bene. Quindi alla tua domanda “quale sarebbe questo bene? ” la risposta è: nessuno, non esiste, l’attuale banconota non vale un cazzo.
Ma tu rifiuti di accettare questo fatto e dici:
“Intanto comunque il mercato accetta e dà valore all’euro, ai dollari, ecc. pur non essendo monete gold standard e dunque??
E dunque forse potresti farcela a capire: il punto è che il mercato non accetta spontaneamente quel “valore”, il mercato è – O – B – B – L – I – G – A – T – O – dagli stati ad “accettare” quel “valore”.
“Intanto ho parlato dei gioielli perché è il tipo di oro che ha la stragrande maggioranza delle persone.”
Allora fai più attenzione a quello che dici, io stavo parlando di oro e stavo rispondendo alla tua affermazione in cui dicevi che “l’oro si svaluta”, ma il top della comicità lo raggiungi dicendo (testuali parole): “Ed è sempre il mercato che ha stabilito che le banconote non si svalutassero immediatamente come l’oro.”
“dimmi subito dove potrei arrivare a prendere di più di quanto spendo per comprare i gioielli in oro che ci vado immediatamente.”
Questo non lo so, stai parlando di nuovo di gioielli, dovresti trovare un acquirente che valuti e desideri quei gioielli più di quanto tu li abbia valutati e pagati.
“Le svalutazioni le fanno ormai (e abbastanza raramente) solo quei pochi paesi che hanno la sovranità monetaria”
Tipo Usa o Giappone?
La Fed immette 85 MILIARDI di $ OGNI MESE.
La banca centrale del Giappone 13 MILA MILIARDI di Yen OGNI MESE.
Cosa intendevi per “abbastanza raramente”? ..”solo” una volta al mese?
Sull’euro dici:
“è troppo forte ed ha azzerato il nostro potere competitivo negli scambi internazionali.”
Una moneta forte ti sembra un male? A me no, con meno moneta compri più roba.
Ma forse tu ti riferisci alle esportazioni, giusto? E quindi vorresti intervenire sulla moneta, giusto?
Perché invece non intervenire abbassando pressione fiscale? I costi dei prodotti da esportare scenderebbero, sarebbero competitivi e si potrebbe continuare ad avere una moneta forte.
E perché non agire eliminando le regole (tipo quelle UE o socialiste dello stato italiano) che non permettono competizione?
Quelli bravi offrirebbero prodotti a costi ancora più bassi e si potrebbe continuare ad avere una moneta forte.
L’euro non mi dispiace perché è forte ma non mi piace perché è fiat e i tassi d’interesse li decide la Bce e non il mercato, come pure non mi piace il fatto che le banche siano tenute ad avere una riserva solo del 2% e che nonostante queste agevolazioni gli stati e le banche che dovrebbero fallire vengano tenute in modo artificiale a vegetare.
“Per cui il “mercato” esiste, è assolutamente “privato” e gli stati sono del tutto secondari, se poi non è libero, se esistono posizioni dominanti, assenza di concorrenza, ecc. può mai essere colpa degli stati?”
Ma che dici? Certo che è colpa degli stati. Chi è che mette in mano a certe banche private il monopolio più importante di tutti, quello gestire la moneta se non gli stati, sai cosa me ne frega se il mercato è in mano ai privati se poi non è libero perché gli stati concedono privilegi (gli stessi che poi permettono posizioni dominanti) solo ad alcuni o regole non per tutti.
Chi è che ha il potere di imporre regole e dispensare privilegi se non gli stati?
Con chi dovrei prendermela se non con gli stati?
Dovrei prendermela con gli ebrei che si comprano i governi?
E perché? Se riescono fanno benissimo. Me la prendo col recinto stato e col pastore governo che mi tiene schiavo e mi vende ad altri.
Qui si tratta di mettere ordine sulle responsabilità, e le colpe di tutto arrivano per forza dagli stati, gli unici che hanno il potere di imporre leggi con la forza e la coercizione.
Le banche saranno pure “cattive” ma fanno solo ciò che gli stati permette loro di fare, comprano e vendono come al mercato delle vacche. Corrompono gli stati? Fanno bene, vuol dire che gli stati hanno troppo potere e quindi sono appetibili e corruttibili, e se hanno troppo potere vuol dire che “io” ho desiderato troppo stato e quindi glie l’ho concesso. È lo stato l’anello marcio della catena.
“…quindi con un potere d’acquisto della moneta in questione completamente diverso. Il dollaro credo si sarà svalutato negli anni e nei decenni…”
Bravo, è esattamente quello che ti ho dimostrato rapportando il dollaro all’oro.
“…e questo è fisiologico ed è successo a tutte le monete del mondo,”
Fisiologico un paio di coglioni… una rapina che dura 80 anni non diventa un “fatto fisiologico” una rapina è una rapina, e resta una RAPINA, dovesse durare anche per 8000 anni, non è una “cosa normale”, …ma come ragioni???
“ma magari è possibile pure che con quei 35 dollari negli anni ’30 avresti potuto avere un potere di acquisto superiore ai 1300 di oggi ed allora significherebbe che anche l’oro ha perso di valore… ”
Rispetto a cosa?
Perché non lasci perdere le arrampicate sugli specchi visto che ti sfracelli ogni volta?
“Per cui il “mercato” esiste, è assolutamente “privato” e gli stati sono del tutto secondari, se poi non è libero, se esistono posizioni dominanti, assenza di concorrenza, ecc. può mai essere colpa degli stati? Al limite sì, ma solo per il fatto che non contano nulla e hanno rinunciato a qualsiasi eventuale forma di controllo e di regolazione.”
ecco. ma tanto non c’è niente da fare: parole al vento caro troll reo troll silvio troll…
Ho evitato, del resto, di commentare, la frase che mi interessa di più perché comunque più vagamente “propositiva”:
“Una moneta libera ovviamente, siccome però al momento non mi sembra che nessuno stato sia disposto a privarsi di un simile strumento di potere per lasciarlo nelle mani del libero mercato, allora possiamo fare solo una cosa: prendercela: usiamo per gli scambi la moneta merce che più ci aggrada uscendo il più possibile dal circuito imposto. Possiamo usare come moneta dei beni o lavoro, e laddove troviamo difficoltà a farlo ci rassegneremo ad usare una moneta ufficiale forte a patto che venga scambiata in contanti.”
La trovo una frase senza senso o magari io non c’ho capito nulla, per cui la tua proposta alternativa per me rimane ancora assolutamente vaga o irrealizzabile.
Ma di questo, nel caso, se ne riparla.
Tre saluti .
depaoli.fabrizio@libero.it il 22 maggio 2014 alle 13:26
La prima parte del tuo post non mi interessa e non la commento, compreso il “Tenente Colombo”, il “finto tonto”, ecc. e anche il fatto che ti sarei “utile”. Ti ho già detto altre volte che puoi scrivere quello che vuoi tanto non mi offendo, per cui fai con comodo ed andiamo avanti.
Veniamo direttamente alle cose su cui non concordiamo o che mi sembrano assurde (ma potrei aver capito male io).
“Questo è vero solo quando quella banconota certifica l’esistenza di un bene che effettivamente esiste nella disponibilità di chi emette la banconota.”
Qui non ho capito a cosa ti riferisci, non credo ti riferisci al gold standard che sai bene che non c’è più da diversi decenni, per cui se non è l’oro il “bene che effettivamente esiste nella disponibilità di chi emette la banconota” quale sarebbe questo bene? Intanto comunque il mercato accetta e dà valore all’euro, ai dollari, ecc. pur non essendo monete gold standard e dunque??
“Se tu compri un gioiello e lo rivendi il giorno dopo, non è automatico che riprendi gli stessi soldi, potresti prenderne di più o di meno rispetto a quello che l’hai pagato”.
Questa me la devi spiegare bene.
Intanto ho parlato dei gioielli perché è il tipo di oro che ha la stragrande maggioranza delle persone. Detto ciò, dimmi subito dove potrei arrivare a prendere di più di quanto spendo per comprare i gioielli in oro che ci vado immediatamente. Nella mia esperienza di privato cittadino che non commercia oro, qualsiasi gioiello in oro, una volta comprato, diventa immediatamente oro “vecchio” e non potrei mai riprendere i soldi pagati, a meno di clamorose rivalutazioni dell’oro per fatti eccezionali.
Penso assolutamente che lo stesso discorso valga per l’oro non in gioielli, in lingottini per esempio (18K o 24K), per cui se non sei dentro il “mercato” dell’oro (sei commerciante, grossista, ecc.) quando vai a rivendere prendi sempre di meno di quanto hai pagato. Ma, anche qui, se sai dove ti potrebbero dare di più dimmelo che sono interessato.
“non è il libero mercato che decide quanto si debba svalutare una banconota (anche perché non avrebbe nessun interesse a farlo) ma gli stati e le banche centrali…ma forse ti riferisci al mercato tra stati e non al libero mercato”
Le svalutazioni le fanno ormai (e abbastanza raramente) solo quei pochi paesi che hanno la sovranità monetaria e comunque a deciderlo sono quasi mai più i governi, ma le banche centrali che sono ormai quasi tutti organismi privati e tengono loro in pugno i governi degli stati, i quali invece contano sempre meno. In Europa svalutazioni non se ne fanno, certo non le possiamo fare noi con l’euro, controllato dalla privatissima BCE, una divisa forte, quasi mai svalutata e per quale abbiamo il problema opposto noi dell’Europa mediterranea: è troppo forte ed ha azzerato il nostro potere competitivo negli scambi internazionali.
Non capisco infine a cosa ti riferisci parlando del “mercato tra stati” che non esiste più da tanto tempo. Un minimo di contrattazione commerciale tra governi esiste solo in pochi campi, come quello dell’energia, con scambi di fonti energetiche, ma a parte questo (ed anche lì comunque la gran parte delle società energetiche sono private), la stragrande maggioranza degli scambi commerciali non è tra stati, ma tra aziende private, in particolare aziende multinazionali e transnazionali che dominano il mercato e se ne fregano degli stati e dei loro governi che non contano quasi mai nulla e sono essi stessi dominati.
Per cui il “mercato” esiste, è assolutamente “privato” e gli stati sono del tutto secondari, se poi non è libero, se esistono posizioni dominanti, assenza di concorrenza, ecc. può mai essere colpa degli stati? Al limite sì, ma solo per il fatto che non contano nulla e hanno rinunciato a qualsiasi eventuale forma di controllo e di regolazione.
“Quanto al sostenere che l’oro si svaluta, mentre cerco di trattenermi dal rotolare dalle risate, ti dico solo che con un’ oz d’oro nel 1935 compravi 35 dollari Usa mentre ora ne puoi comprare 1300. Beh, qui non c’è un granché da dire: o l’oro si è rivalutato o il dollaro si è svalutato, girala come vuoi…”
Credo che fai bene a trattenerti “dal rotolare dalle risate”, come lo faccio anch’io leggendo questo tuo paragone con una situazione di 80 anni fa (OTTANTA) e quindi con un potere d’acquisto della moneta in questione completamente diverso. Il dollaro credo si sarà svalutato negli anni e nei decenni e questo è fisiologico ed è successo a tutte le monete del mondo, ma magari è possibile pure che con quei 35 dollari negli anni ’30 avresti potuto avere un potere di acquisto superiore ai 1300 di oggi ed allora significherebbe che anche l’oro ha perso di valore… e dunque?
Due saluti .
P.S. i miei (più generosi) Due saluti/spazio/punto, ti fanno anche evitare di chiudere un tuo post rivolto a me con il tuo solito Un saluto/spazio/punto??
Reo Silvio,
“1) Chi ti ha messo nella testa le assurdità che scrivi?”
Qualsiasi persona di buon senso ci arriva da sola, qualunque conclusione che abbia una logica non è un’assurdità.
Nella fattispecie sto parlando di un’economia che riconosce la proprietà privata e il libero scambio, quindi questa logica si basa su questi due fattori.
Logica che si può ritrovare in modo limpido e confortante nelle analisi di Bastiat, von Mises, Hayek, Rothbard e tanti altri Economisti onesti di Scuola Austriaca.
Il tuo concetto di “assurdità” può quindi solo aver senso se consideri un’assurdità la proprietà privata, la libertà di scelta, di scambio, e il loro rispetto.
“2) Perché continui a scriverle, da anni, pur non essendo riuscito a convincere nessuno?”
Si vede perché sono un filantropo e mi sta a cuore il fatto che la gente possa capire il valore della libertà e che prenda consapevolezza in modo autonomo (mediante ragionamento e logica) dei meccanismi che la mantengono in condizione di schiavitù.
Io non sono un imbonitore, il mio fine non è quello di convincere ma piuttosto quello di seguire un ragionamento coerente.
Tu piuttosto, perché ti preoccupi tanto per me dal momento che mi consideri “innocuo”?
Perché mai mi dedichi tanta attenzione?
“3) Perché invece di fare questi discorsi teorici astrusi, non fai delle proposte concrete (anche molto “radicali”) e così, forse avresti più possibilità di convincere altri o comunque instaurare un dialogo produttivo?”
Le mie proposte riguardano qualsiasi azione individuale che vada nella direzione del rispetto della proprietà privata, della libertà di scelta e del rispetto dell’individuo, nella realtà si traduce nello smantellamento di questo tipo di stato impositore (impostore) del socialismo.
Proposte ne ho fatte molte, vanno dal non cedere la propria ricchezza allo stato, all’uscire dal sistema bancario, al convertire i propri soldi in beni di valore per sottrarli al controllo dello stato e delle banche, a non indebitarsi con stato e banche, a rispettare i princìpi naturali anziché le “leggi” dello stato. A questo proposito potrebbe aiutarti a comprendere la differenza tra le due cose questo bellissimo discorso di Giovanni Birindelli:
http://vimeo.com/94140483
Sai bene che è impossibile instaurare un dialogo produttivo con chi non è disposto a mettere in discussione il dogma “stato”.
Il fatto che tu voglia cercare un “discorso produttivo” e solo una tua tattica per apparire artificialmente “aperto” e “ragionevole”.
In passato mi pare di averti paragonato al Tenente Colombo, il quale usava fare il “finto tonto” per far cadere in errore il suo interlocutore, cosa impossibile da fare con una persona coerente.
Tu di tanto in tanto ti riproponi con la tua retorica melensa, ed io ogni volta ti spiego, ma se tu continui a non capire allora forse non sei un “finto tonto”, forse lo sei per davvero.
Ti confido un piccolo segreto: sai perché mi prendo ancora la briga di risponderti?
Perché mi servi, mi sei utile a demolire l’illogicità delle tue affermazioni ed a smantellare le tue furbizie (che sono purtroppo anche quelle di tanti altri statalisti).
“quale potrebbe essere, per te, il sistema “monetario” alternativo (nel concreto) a questo attuale basato sull’euro, il dollaro, la sterlina, lo yen, il renminbi…”
Una moneta libera ovviamente, siccome però al momento non mi sembra che nessuno stato sia disposto a privarsi di un simile strumento di potere per lasciarlo nelle mani del libero mercato, allora possiamo fare solo una cosa: prendercela: usiamo per gli scambi la moneta merce che più ci aggrada uscendo il più possibile dal circuito imposto. Possiamo usare come moneta dei beni o lavoro, e laddove troviamo difficoltà a farlo ci rassegneremo ad usare una moneta ufficiale forte a patto che venga scambiata in contanti.
“Intanto che l’imperatore per stampare la moneta d’oro e anche il suo bel faccione sai quante guerre, massacri e stermini ha dovuto commettere? ”
Sicuro. Questo però riguarda la violazione al diritto della proprietà privata e della libertà individuale da parte dell’imperatore o stato, e non certo al fatto che quella moneta fosse “difettosa” o “colpevole”, anzi, il fatto stesso che gli imperi tendessero a rubarla ad altri imperi è proprio la conferma che quella moneta ha un valore apprezzato dal mercato. Devi stare attento a non confondere capra e cavoli.
Riferendoti all’oro dici:
“ma il suo valore (molto alto) è anch’esso puramente convenzionale e stabilito dal “mercato”, come quello di qualsiasi materiale…”
Giusto.
Poi prosegui:
“…come quello della carta, che non vale quasi niente, ma se poi diventa “banconota” vale molto, ma molto di più.”
Questo è vero solo quando quella banconota certifica l’esistenza di un bene che effettivamente esiste nella disponibilità di chi emette la banconota. In quel caso il mercato riconosce alla banconota il valore per il fatto che sa benissimo che la banconota e il bene che rappresenta sono interscambiabili: io posso cambiare in qualsiasi momento la banconota col bene reale che rappresenta nella quantità espressa dalla banconota.
“Ed è sempre il “mercato” a fissare questi valori che sono tutti puramente convenzionali.”
Vero, ed in quel caso il mercato fissa, sopra ogni cosa, un valore di riferimento: l’oro diventa convenzionalmente l’unità di misura per il valore. Elegge l’oro come moneta.
Poi però iniziano le tue performance acrobatiche volte a confondere le acque quando dici:
“Ed è sempre il mercato che ha stabilito che le banconote non si svalutassero immediatamente come l’oro. Con mille euro di banconote puoi comprare le stesse cose anche il giorno dopo, per esempio due vestiti di lusso, ma se provi a rivenderti un gioiello d’oro che hai pagato il giorno prima mille euro riprendi circa la metà”
Questa sì che è un’assurdità, di tipo comico oltretutto.
Riguardo al gioiello, anche qui cerchi di confondere capra e cavoli: si sta parlando del bene metallo, non del bene gioiello. Al bene gioiello viene aggiunto all’oro una lavorazione e difficilmente il mercato potrà prendere “convenzionalmente” quel gioiello come unità di misura del valore perché i gioielli sono tutti diversi, sia per lavorazione, sia per peso e sia per purezza dell’oro con cui vengono creati.
Se tu compri un gioiello e lo rivendi il giorno dopo, non è automatico che riprendi gli stessi soldi, potresti prenderne di più o di meno rispetto a quello che l’hai pagato, e questo dipende da come il compratore valuta personalmente il gioiello come costruzione. Invece il valore del metallo con cui è costruito quel gioiello non cambia, quello rimane fisso, quello, nel breve termine, né lo perdi né lo incrementi, nel lungo termine invece di sicuro lo incrementi. …ma credo che tu sappia già queste cose.
Quanto al mercato, se fosse libero e potesse decidere, stabilirebbe eccome che le banconote non si possano svalutare, e sai come? Scegliendo di usare solo quelle che non si svalutano.
Purtroppo ora non è così, non è il libero mercato che decide quanto si debba svalutare una banconota (anche perché non avrebbe nessun interesse a farlo) ma gli stati e le banche centrali.
…ma forse ti riferisci al mercato tra stati e non al libero mercato, eh già.. dev’essere quello l’equivoco alla base della nostra incomprensione.
Quanto al sostenere che l’oro si svaluta, mentre cerco di trattenermi dal rotolare dalle risate, ti dico solo che con un’ oz d’oro nel 1935 compravi 35 dollari Usa mentre ora ne puoi comprare 1300. Beh, qui non c’è un granché da dire: o l’oro si è rivalutato o il dollaro si è svalutato, girala come vuoi..
“E dunque potrei concordare sul fatto che non siamo liberi e, addirittura, siamo “tutti schiavi”, ma davvero schiavi di chi?? Chi davvero fissa valori, quotazioni, convenzioni?? I singoli stati (che evidentemente contano sempre meno? O il “mercato””
Il mercato. Il problema è che gli stati e le banche centrali possono intervenire a loro piacimento su quella che dovrebbe essere l’unità di misura del valore: LA MONETA. Il banco è truccato, le convenzioni spontanee del mercato non vengono rispettate, i conti vanno tutti a puttane e lo stato ti obbliga a prenderli per buoni, …quindi il mercato non è libero.
Voglio provare a rispondere alla domanda sul sistema monetario alternativo all’euro. Nella speranza di fare un po’ di chiarezza.
La discussione sulla moneta ruota attorno alla teoria di Hayek delle concurrent currencies. E’ questo il sistema monetario che il signor De Paolo ha in mente. Il problema è come arrivarci. Qualora, come molti su questo blog auspicano, l’euro fosse abolito, e con esso la Bce e tutto l’impianto dell’unione monetaria, ritorneremmo alle monete nazionali e alle politiche monetarie nazionali. Con tutti i limiti e difetti. Minor indipendenza delle banche centrali, ad esempio. Neppure avremmo un recupero della totalità della sovranità monetaria. Prima dell’euro le decisioni della Banca d’Italia non erano indipendenti da quelle della Bundesbank.
Nulla dice che andremmo verso le concurrent currencies di Hayek. Di fatto non vedo alcuna remota possibilità che ciò accada. Semplicemente sono fuori discussione, per mancanza di volontà politica. Non vi sono proposte in tal senso. Quindi, l’alternativa all’euro sono le politiche monetarie nazionali e un recupero molto parziale della sovranità monetaria.
L’euro ha avuto il grande merito, per un liberale, di abolire il monopolio statale nella produzione della moneta. La Bce non appartiene a un singolo Stato, ma ai 28 dell’Ue, dei quali 18 hanno versato le quote di capitale. Si tratta, dunque, di un multipolio. Inoltre con l’unione monetaria gli Stati non hanno più l’opzione di emettere moneta o creare liquidità attraverso la propria banca centrale. L’euro è una garanzia di miglior (più indipendente) politica monetaria e un’approssimazione al gold standard. Da liberale ritengo che sia, nelle attuali condizioni, il sistema che più si approssima ai nostri “desiderata”. Ogni movimento da esso è un peggioramento. L’attuale situazione è la migliore, proprio perché dietro l’euro non vi è un potere statuale, ma quello di un multipolio, che, di fatto, non riesce a “catturare” la Bce.
In conclusione questa situazione a metà strada tra la federazione e lo stato nazionale è quella preferibile perché mantiene la moneta il più isolata possibile dal potere politico.
Angelo Santagostino
DamyEku il 16 novembre 2011 alle 17:38:
Matrix,mi ha dato uno spunto;negativo o positivo non ha importanza,l’essenziale buttarlo nella mischia di altre opinioni del blog di Foa.E…se Berlusconi fosse stato minacciato al G20? Mi riferisco alla giustizia naturalmente,cioè fai questo e tutto si risolverà a tuo favore!?.(BAT)
Sfogliando l’archivio nel blog di Foa è sempre un piacere farlo,specie se si trovano commenti scritti tre anni”dandoti del pazz” prima che altri intelletti hanno scritto oggi.
Buona giornata
“Con mille oro di banconote”, refuso chiaramente volevo dire “Con mille euro di banconote”
De paoli, scusa, ma mi levi qualche curiosità?
1) Chi ti ha messo nella testa le assurdità che scrivi?
2) Perché continui a scriverle, da anni, pur non essendo riuscito a convincere nessuno?
3) Perché invece di fare questi discorsi teorici astrusi, non fai delle proposte concrete (anche molto “radicali”) e così, forse avresti più possibilità di convincere altri o comunque instaurare un dialogo produttivo?
Naturalmente solo se ti va di rispondere…
Nel merito, mi riferisco a questo tuo ultimo post e al tema delle monete (oltre non sono andato nella lettura).
Il tema sarà stato anche trattato da te tante volte, ma io non ricordo (o non ho capito) quale potrebbe essere, per te, il sistema “monetario” alternativo (nel concreto) a questo attuale basato sull’euro, il dollaro, la sterlina, lo yen, il renminbi…
Ovviamente non mi interessa che mi scrivi in generale e teoricamente cosa è una moneta e a cosa dovrebbe servire, ma vorrei capire praticamente qual è il sistema alternativo che proponi e come si può imporre a quello attuale che domina il mercato internazionale.
Nella “teoria” del tuo post precedente, intanto, ti dico che ci sono per me delle cose senza alcun senso.
“Il massimo del vezzo che un imperatore poteva permettersi era quello di prendere una moneta d’oro e stampargli sopra il suo bel faccione. Tutto qui.”
Tutto qui??? (dico io).
“una moneta merce è impossibile da “emettere”, la puoi solo produrre lavorando, in quel caso scavando, per ottenere qualcosa di MOLTO RICHIESTO DAL MERCATO.”
??
“se prima solo alcuni avevano la sfortuna di essere schiavi, ora che invece siamo molto più “democratici” siamo TUTTI schiavi”
???
Insomma che dire??
Intanto che l’imperatore per stampare la moneta d’oro e anche il suo bel faccione sai quante guerre, massacri e stermini ha dovuto commettere? E sai pure di quanti schiavi ha avuto bisogno (sono loro che hanno “lavorato” e “scavato”, non certo l’imperatore)?
Ma la di là di questo, è chiaro che l’oro è storicamente (da secoli) “prezioso” perché non si trova così facilmente e ha ottime proprietà industriali (è duttile, inossidabile, ecc.), ma il suo valore (molto alto) è anch’esso puramente convenzionale e stabilito dal “mercato”, come quello di qualsiasi materiale, come quello della carta, che non vale quasi niente, ma se poi diventa “banconota” vale molto, ma molto di più. Ed è sempre il “mercato” a fissare questi valori che sono tutti puramente convenzionali. Anche la carta comunque si ottiene lavorando (mica la produci con uno schiocco di dita) e quella delle banconote è fatta con lavorazioni molto raffinate…
Ed è sempre il mercato che ha stabilito che le banconote non si svalutassero immediatamente come l’oro. Con mille oro di banconote puoi comprare le stesse cose anche il giorno dopo, per esempio due vestiti di lusso, ma se provi a rivenderti un gioiello d’oro che hai pagato il giorno prima mille euro riprendi circa la metà di quei mille euro e ti compri uno solo di quegli abiti di lusso. L’oro è una merce come tutte le altre e diventa subito “usato” (come i vestiti) ed è soggetto a deprezzamento per i privati cittadini ed alle convenzioni stabilite dal “mercato”… e da chi se no?
Al di là delle valore “legale” delle banconote, generalmente fissate dagli stati, è però sempre il mercato che ne fissa l’effettiva quotazione che può oscillare di molto, fino, in alcuni casi estremi, ad annullarne quasi il valore, per cui quasi potrebbero arrivare a valere meno della carta utilizzata per produrle…
Non saprei dire se il mercato sia realmente “libero” (direi di no), ma nel mercato (che è assolutamente dominato da gruppi privati) ci siamo immersi fino al collo. Questo mi sembra incontestabile.
E dunque potrei concordare sul fatto che non siamo liberi e, addirittura, siamo “tutti schiavi”, ma davvero schiavi di chi?? Chi davvero fissa valori, quotazioni, convenzioni?? I singoli stati (che evidentemente contano sempre meno? O il “mercato” (che è sempre più internazionale e globale)??
Ma non è di questo, in effetti, che volevo parlare, volevo sapere come concretamente si poteva cambiare questo sistema e quali potevano essere le possibili alternative.
Due saluti .
Mariolino,
“Le monete non solo ultimamente sono emesse dagli stati, è sempre stato così fin dai tempi dei faraoni o dei romani.”
Eh dai Mariolino… quante volte abbiamo affrontato il discorso “moneta”?
Quante volte vi ho chiesto, implorato , supplicato di CAPIRE innanzitutto cos’è una moneta, a cosa deve servire e di conseguenza quali caratteristiche deve avere?
Tutto inutile… va beh.., poco male, peggio per voi.
C’è una differenza ENORME tra emettere ed adottare.
Un tempo gli stati non emettevano moneta, bensì ADOTTAVANO la moneta o le monete che il mercato voleva: prevalentemente d’oro e d’argento.
Il massimo del vezzo che un imperatore poteva permettersi era quello di prendere una moneta d’oro e stampargli sopra il suo bel faccione. Tutto qui.
Capisci bene che una moneta merce è impossibile da “emettere”, la puoi solo produrre lavorando, in quel caso scavando, per ottenere qualcosa di MOLTO RICHIESTO DAL MERCATO.
“Emettere” invece significa che uno stato OBBLIGA il mercato ad usare una moneta a debito di nessun valore che LUI (lo stato), o i suoi amici (le banche), hanno il potere di gestire e controllare.
Et voila’…, se prima solo alcuni avevano la sfortuna di essere schiavi, ora che invece siamo molto più “democratici” siamo TUTTI schiavi (sto ironizzando ovviamente, lo dico prima che qualche idiota la interpreti come una bella notizia).
“Per gli incidenti eviterei di dire certe cose, anche mio padre ci ha lasciato la pelle sul lavoro, e non certo per sua scelta,”
Lo so, me lo hai detto personalmente e me ne dispiace, se però c’è qualcuno che può permettersi di affrontare quel discorso senza “formalizzarsi” troppo quello sono io, che (come sai bene anche tu) mi chiedo ancora adesso come faccia ad essere vivo in seguito al mio ultimo incidente (sul lavoro), incidente sicuramente imputabile ad una leggerezza mia e di nessun’altro.
Di sicuro NESSUNO (a parte un aspirante suicida) è contento di morire a prescindere.
Un incidente sul lavoro, o sul divertimento o su qualsiasi altra attività, resta un incidente, NON UN OMICIDIO.
Ognuno di noi è il miglior antidoto contro i potenziali incidenti, ancora oggi nonostante il massiccio intervento dello stato in materia di sicurezza, gli incidenti vengono evitati dall’individuo, dal suo buon senso e dall’esperienza tramandata dai suoi simili.
La funzione delle leggi dello stato non è quella di evitare gli infortuni ma di scaricare le responsabilità in caso di infortunio: lo stato si eleva e si vende come “tutore responsabile della sicurezza”, per scaricarsi di quella responsabilità fa le leggi, le leggi le impone all’imprenditore, l’imprenditore a sua volta rimane “pizzicato” tra l’incudine e il martello allora a sua volta per scaricarsi responsabilità nomina un responsabile della sicurezza incaricato di far rispettare le disposizioni ai dipendenti, i quali a loro volta si dividono in due categorie: i ragionevoli: che prescindendo dalle disposizioni giuste o sbagliate, utili od inutili, valutano di volta in volta i rischi per sé e per gli altri e non si fanno quasi mai male; ed i superficiali: che vedendo intorno a loro un ambiente di regole, leggi e dispositivi di sicurezza di stampo statale si sentono in una botte di ferro, abbassano la guardia, sanno che qualunque cosa succeda la responsabilità non sarà mai loro ma ricadrà su altri, confidano troppo nelle regole e nell’infallibilità propria ed altrui e diventano quindi i migliori candidati per farsi del male e, cosa assai peggiore, farne ad altri. Questi ultimi sono spessissimo in mutua o in infortunio.
“Mai sentito parlare di sicurezza sul lavoro, ti posso assicurare che anche ora , se non costretti dalla legge dell’odiato stato, i padroni ne farebbero volentieri a meno, e dove lo possono fare lo fanno, e gli vuoi dare ancora più potere.”
Io gli vorrei dare più libertà, il potere non c’entra un tubo, il potere lo esercita chi può imporre qualcosa a qualcuno e non sono certo gli imprenditori. Ti viene in mente qualcosa che un imprenditore possa imporre ad un suo dipendente?
A me no.
Io vorrei dargli libertà di accordarsi privatamente, di scegliere chi tenere e chi licenziare, è l’unico modo per creare quella selezione necessaria ad ogni impresa per essere efficiente.
La gente capace diventa preziosissima per l’imprenditore, la pagherà bene per paura che scappi altrove e farà di tutto perché non gli succeda nulla perché gli interessa che produca, che sia parte efficiente del suo team, che trovi le condizioni migliori per dare il meglio. PER INTERESSE!
Che parola tabù eeh…, il “padrone” ha interesse ad avere un buon dipendente come un buon dipendente ha interesse ad avere un “padrone” in gamba, che abbia la possibilità di riconoscere il suo operato ed i suoi meriti senza dover pagare il pizzo allo stato, che possa far diventare ricca e crescere l’azienda per poter premiare ed incentivare il buon operaio, che quindi si instauri un rapporto di interesse reciproco, …cosa pressoché impossibile se ci si ficca di mezzo il “Dio stato”.
Un saluto .
depaoli.fabrizio@libero.it il 19 maggio 2014 alle 22:55:
Le monete non solo ultimamente sono emesse dagli stati, è sempre stato così fin dai tempi dei faraoni o dei romani.
Per gli incidenti eviterei di dire certe cose, anche mio padre ci ha lasciato la pelle sul lavoro, e non certo per sua scelta, che poi uno possa scegliere “liberamente” cosa fare è fantascienza, dove ci sono le miniere i poveracci fanno i minatori, dove ci sono altri lavori pericolosi o nocivi a loro toccano, oppure ti dai alla malavita, perchè alternative non ce ne sono.
Anche mio suocero è morto per colpa del lavoro, faceva appunto il minatore ed è morto di silicosi, scelta da lui naturalmente.
Mai sentito parlare di sicurezza sul lavoro, ti posso assicurare che anche ora , se non costretti dalla legge dell’odiato stato, i padroni ne farebbero volentieri a meno, e dove lo possono fare lo fanno, e gli vuoi dare ancora più potere.
@ angelo santagostino il 15 maggio 2014 alle 12:46:
“Troppo facile bollare come fanatico chi crede nel comune destino europeo. Se fanatismo vi è, allora è quello di chi vede la soluzione nella dissoluzione.”
Credo che in queste parole ci sia l’essenza del problema.
Il destino delle nazioni europee è, a mio avviso, cosa che nulla ha a che vedere con la concezione fatalista del “comune destino europeo”. Bensì soltanto con le precise volontà di governi delle nazioni stesse, che si sono lasciati privare di ogni autonomia decisionale, intanto. Cause endogene, quindi, che al momento – anche volendo saltare l’interpretazione sulle origini dell’ATTUALE UE che tutto è meno che unita – stanno portando alla dissoluzione sì, ma delle nazioni europee. E questo è fatto difficilmente contestabile.
Ciò non significa rappresentare che l’Europa non dovrebbe esistere. Sarebbe come negare una realtà geografica, politica, commerciale, disegnata così perlomeno dalla caduta del muro di Berlino e dell’ ex URSS. Sono invece i rapporti tra le nazioni europee ad essere stati alterati dalla nascita dell’UE. Essendo oggi, tali rapporti, sbilanciati artificialmente a favore delle nazioni del nord occidente rispetto a quelle del sud. Segnatamente a favore della nazione tedesca.
Anche a non voler mettere in discussione (cosa ardua) i buoni intenti dei padri fondatori, questo percorso ha portato al peggioramento delle condizioni di vita di intere popolazioni, tra cui la nostra. Ciò è dipeso – sempre a mio parere – da un micidiale mix di inettitudine politica dei nostri rappresentanti, da un lato. E dall’altro dalla corruttibilità degli stessi legata agli interventi dei governanti di nazioni, come la Germania, sui nostri governi fin dai tempi della Prima Repubblica. Questo è stato descritto puntualmente da testimoni dell’epoca, quali Nino Galloni, per esempio.
Oltre alle pressioni, sempre meno occulte, dei potentati retrostanti quelle nazioni.
Nulla di diverso è successo all’epilogo di questa sciagurata vicenda, quando il premier italiano Berlusconi ha rassegnato le proprie dimissioni. E’ argomento dibattuto proprio in questi giorni e, lo stesso personaggio che si è dimesso, soltanto ora parla di colpo/i di stato. Tuttavia c’è un passaggio che Berlusconi non ha mai inteso rivelare. Che è quello che successe alcuni giorni prima dell’insediamento di Mario Monti. E che riguarda le dichiarazioni del sen. leghista Garavaglia, in merito al ricatto perpetrato da Olli Rehn in commissione bilancio.
Direi che se si ignorano questo genere di chiavi di lettura, allora la comprensione degli eventi politici che hanno connotato l’infausta storia italiana con riguardo almeno a questi ultimi anni, resta affidata ad interpretazioni ballerine suffragate (comunemente) dalle solite tifoserie.
Se invece si tiene conto dei passaggi di cui sopra, allora la lettura degli eventi assume maggiore chiarezza. E prende consistenza il giudizio che ne deriva. Tutto si riduce al materiale umano protagonista dei fatti accaduti, costituito – per quanto riguarda i nostri interessi – dalla classe politica che c’è stata. Che essa debba ancora rappresentarci per il futuro è cosa che dipende esclusivamente da noi. Quisque faber fortunae suae, se si vuol parlare di destino.
Per queste ragioni i fatti sopra riportati (il primo riguardava la Lira ed il secondo l’Euro) dimostrano, a mio parere, come la scelta dei rappresentanti politici nazionali sia concetto propedeutico e sovrastante qualunque teoria economica si voglia abbracciare. Personalmente credo alla sovranità monetaria delle singole nazioni. Gli Stati continueranno ad esistere, essendo possibile interagire soltanto sul loro funzionamento. Con buona pace di chiunque, ed al di la di ogni facile e disinvolta etichetta.
=========================================
“L’Europa non va disfatta: va resa liberale.”
E’ affermazione per la quale, su un piano puramente teorico, si potrebbe concordare, in linea di principio, precisando però che QUESTA Unione Europea è lo strumento meno adatto e MENO LIBERALE (soprattutto) per riuscirvi. L’Europa (intesa come realtà geografica) funzionava meglio PRIMA del trattato di Maastricht è di ciò che ne è conseguito, fino ai Trattati Mes e FC. E non soltanto per l’Italia: a ben guardare i dati reali, 20 nazioni su 27, a giugno scorso avevano già sforato il rapporto Deficit/Pil. Il 75%. Tre su quattro, scriveva qualcuno su queste pagine. La situazione si invertirebbe: a) in assenza di quei Trattati e b) se non avessimo l’idea fissa che il nostro DP vada onorato ad ogni costo. Resto del parere che l’applicazione del principi giuridico del “debito detestabile”, per quanto qualcuno possa ignorarlo, sia uno dei percorsi da adottare. Esistendo, nel merito, precedenti storici. Gli stessi USA hanno per primi sancito ed applicato tale principio di diritto internazionale nel 2003 cancellando, per la popolazione indigena, il debito contratto in Iraq da Saddam. L’Ecuador di Correa, in base allo stesso principio, nel 2008 ha rifiutato di onorare l’intero debito, accettando di ricomprarne il 91% ad un terzo del suo valore nominale.
La Germania (paese creditore sovraesposto) ha il terrore di un simile evento, ragione per la quale ha tenuto in coma vegetativo la Grecia. Un passaggio sfuggito ai più, inoltre, è stato quello in cui un rappresentante dei potentati esteri del calibro di Mario Monti, ha ripetuto una frase sfuggita prima alla Merkel (e della quale non si trova più traccia sul web): “Se crolla l’Euro è a rischio la PACE”. Non riferendosi, ovviamente, alla pace sociale. E nessun rappresentante italiano in quel preciso momento, davanti allo spudorato LERCIUME di quella minaccia, ha avuto il coraggio di dare un calcio in bocca a quei due. Tantomeno chi s’era limitato ai sornioni “cucù” ed alle definizioni di “culona-inchiavabile”, per poi spalancare il portone d’ingresso allo stesso Monti, per giunta.
La Merkel d’altro canto è quella che si esprimeva in questi termini:
«La Grecia deve mettere in pratica le decisioni prese a ottobre. Il programma per salvare il Paese dall’indebitamento deve proseguire velocemente, altrimenti non si potrà procedere con la seconda tranche di aiuti. Noi vogliamo che la Grecia resti nell’eurozona, ma la sua credibilità dev’essere migliorata. Ci saranno controlli frequenti della troika.” Soggiungendo immediatamente di averne parlato al telefono con Karolos Papoulias e che si sarebbe incontrata l’indomani con Christine Lagarde per discutere questa questione. Tutto come da copione.
Sembrerebbe un problema complesso. O almeno questo è quello che sempre più pressantemente si vuol far credere alla gente. Direi invece che non è poi così difficile venire a capo del puzzle, se solo si mette qualche tassello al posto giusto. Il primo dei quali, in senso assoluto, dovrebbe consistere nell’esautorare dal suo ruolo la classe politica responsabile del disastro economico. E la sua sostituzione con altro soggetto politico. Non credo si possa discutere di altro, per ciò che è dato di conoscenza fino ad ora.
Dunque, dire “L’Europa non va disfatta: va resa liberale.” è affermazione, con tutto il rispetto per chi la fa, che non ha molto significato in assenza di indicazioni concrete sulle modalità per pervenire a questo obbiettivo.
L’appello di questo gigante (sempre attuale a due anni di distanza) in un mondo di nani, e la sua analisi storica, dovrebbero essere invece – per chiunque – la giusta chiave di lettura della barbarie che interi popoli – fino ad ora – hanno continuato e continuano a subire…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRgWIam8etw
Mariolino, parafrasando: “tutti buonisti col cuore degli altri…”.
Votare “col cuore” per uno stato senza princìpi è un’azione che esprime un insano masochismo per chi la fa, ed un profondo sadismo per chi la propone.
“..e poi quando mai le monete sono state “libere”, sono sempre state emesse dagli stati o dalle banche appositamente autorizzate.”
Ultimamente sembra che sia proprio così, che sia quello il problema? ..per me lo è sicuramente.
“vedere quello che è successo in Turchia, in un mondo come il vostro sarebbe la norma, diritto solo di morire.”
Mariolino, c’è differenza tra un Ayrton Senna che si schianta, un minatore che rimane sepolto in un crollo, un Marco Simoncelli che muore in moto, un camionista che si ribalta, un pilota che precipita, un’infermiera che viene infettata da un paziente…?
Per me nessuna, tutte vittime di incidenti mentre facevano il loro lavoro, può capitare a tutti.
C’è modo e modo di morire: per incidente in qualcosa che comunque tu hai deciso liberamente di fare, o perché “qualcuno” ti manda forzatamente al macello come per esempio in guerra, oppure privandoti direttamente del pane che produci per sfamarti, o impedendoti di lavorare e produrre come ora, in quel caso vedo una fortissima relazione con un sistema statalista…
Un saluto .
DamyEku il 24 ottobre 2011 alle 17:39:
Sera tutti!? Azz,quandi utenti nuovi e dalla Svizzera,visto i vostri nik? Aahahahah.La risata,e si,la risata.Credo quella ridente tra Sarkozy e la Merkel,non è altra che di quelle PERDENTI!Perdenti,perchè questi 2e soggetti”Ancora politici o imminente la loro TROMBATURA!?” hanno paura dell’Italia”altro che il contrario” perchè stà intralciando i loro piani di complotto contro.Vede Foa,Sarkozy e la Merkel,si stanno comportando,come 2e politici che si confrontano nei salotti TV.Infatti,di ridenti ne abbiamo visti tanti nelle TV,e, chi ha sempre risacchiato”Sse pò scrivere così? L’essenziale ci si è capiti”l’avversario,si è trovato sempre in difficoltà.Simone74,credi al trappolone? Ok,ma credo più che si stanno suicidando questi dalla voce grande.L’es.l’ho abbiamo in casa,la Marcegaglia,ora vedova di Marchionne solo? O rimarrà con la sua voce da urlo MACHODONNA?.Berlusconi,”Solo colpa sua dice qualche utente” ci ha portati in questo schifo,in prima pagina e a 4-5 ci sono i dati dell’Italia voluta da Berlusconi”Odiato da tutti”(Chi poi? Senz’altro, chi avrebbe fatto di un boccone della sinistra al Potere ).(BAT)
Ecco cosa scrivevo già allora…Oggi scrivono libri tanti intelletti.
Buona serata a tutti.
“Non si da da mangiare ai troll”.
Cit.
“Con la recessione le famiglie non spendono più e in un anno lasciano in banca 15,4 miliardi di euro, mentre crolla di 25,8 mld la liquidità degli istituti di credito che hanno aumentato di 32,7 mld gli investimenti in titoli di Stato”
Questa frase spiega tutto, per chi ha voglia di capire.
federico, questa tua prima lezione di economia neo e ultraliberista a pressione che si autoregolamenta in modo naturale mi spezza il cuore.
niente rolls-royce per l’agente di cambio, dunque? mannaggia.
in compenso però si può aggiungere un piano al LIBERO CONDOMINIO MINIMO LIBERTARIO LIBERISTA PRIVATO E SOVRANO CONFEDERATO DI TRESETTE DI SOPRA E DI SOTTO.
o ti sistemi in tavernetta?
la vostra affezionata biografa,
l’aura
depaoli.fabrizio@libero.it il 18 maggio 2014 alle 19:41:
Ma votare col cuore non sarebbe meglio, che avete al suo posto, una calcolatrice, e poi quando mai le monete sono state “libere”, sono sempre state emesse dagli stati o dalle banche appositamente autorizzate.
Io non voterò perchè quel giorno sono quassù a lavorare, altrimenti però non saprei a chi darlo.
Se potessi impedirei ai liberisti di chiamarsi libertari, è una contraddizione in termini, la libertà per pochi e gli altri sotto, perchè quello è il liberismo economico, mi sembra che la storia parli chiaro, e anche quello che hanno scritto Von Hayek e company, non a caso ammirato dalla lady di ferro, di ferro solo contro i poveracci e i minatori però.
Ps, vedere quello che è successo in Turchia, in un mondo come il vostro sarebbe la norma, diritto solo di morire.
DamyEku il 13 febbraio 2014 alle 20:08:
“Il profeta Berluscvoni”
Berlusconi: “Inchiesta su Napolitano. Fini e Casini una iattura”
Il leader Pdl: “Se la Lega va da sola, perde”. Sull’euro: “La Bce deve stampare moneta e garantire i debiti di tutti”
Non solo Mario Monti, ma anche Giorgio Napolitano finisce nel mirino di Silvio Berlusconi. In un’intervista a Radio Capital, oltre a ribadire i giudizi durissimi sul professore e i suoi alleati Pierferdinando Casini e Gianfranco Fini e a rilanciare l’abolizione dell’Imu sulla prima casa e le misure per la crescita, il Cavaliere rilancia l’idea di una commissione d’inchiesta per chiarire manovre e responsabilità di quella che Berlusconi ha più volte definito “congiura” ai suoi danni. Le settimane, cioè, dell’autunno 2011 che portarono poi alla caduta del suo governo e all’arrivo dei tecnici. “Sarà una commissione di inchiesta eventualmente a far emergere ruoli che ciascuno ha svolto in quell’occasione”, ha spiegato il Cav coinvolgendo anche il presidente della Repubblica.
http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CD0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liberoquotidiano.it%2Fnews%2Fpolitica%2F1152903%2FBerlusconi—Inchiesta-su-Napolitano–Fini-e-Casini-una-iattura-.html&ei=FxX9Us_aIOa84ATfpoCoCg&usg=AFQjCNGNi0B918uNPW5yX-XrIVon58vIAg&bvm=bv.61190604,d.bGE
Scusate per l’OT e il post preso dal blog di…
Buona serata a tutti.
DamyEku il 12 febbraio 2014 alle 09:54:
DamyEku il 11 febbraio 2014 alle 21:00:
Postato ieri nel blog di Lottieri…”Con traduzione in italiano”…
Un altro Conspiracy Theory diventa Realtà: incontrare gli uomini con il piano dietro golpe incruento in Italia.
Il grafico qui sotto è molto familiare a tutti coloro che stava osservando le turbolenze oraria nel mercato obbligazionario europeo nel novembre del 2011, quando le obbligazioni italiane si è schiantato, quando i rendimenti salito a livelli record, e ogni downtick dell’Euro avrebbe potuto essere il suo ultimo.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/02/Italian%20bond%20yields%20Nov%202011.JPG
Quello che il grafico non può mostrare sono le trasformazioni drammatiche nel governo d’Italia che hanno avuto luogo proprio come esploso lo spread obbligazionario italiano, che ha visto le dimissioni di carriera politico Silvio Berlusconi letteralmente giorni dopo che i rendimenti salito, e il instatement di Goldman tecnocrate Mario Monti in Italia prossimo Primo Ministro.
In realtà alcuni, e certamente questo sito , aveva suggerito il colpo in rendimenti italiani era soltanto un grande piano orchestrato per inaugurare un nuovo governo italiano che, con il supporto di un altro allume Goldman, della BCE quindi nuovo di zecca testa Mario Draghi, scatenare una nuova era nella vita italiana, presumibilmente una delle austerità (ignorando che due anni dopo Berlusconi, il debito in Italia in rapporto al PIL non è mai stata così alta), e che darebbe l’impressione che l’Europa sia fissato per tutto il tempo preservando il rotto Sistema monetario europeo per almeno un altro anno o due. In altre parole, una teoria della cospirazione grande di un colpo di stato senza spargimento di sangue pre-programmato. Che tutto questo avrebbe avuto luogo sotto gli auspici e con la benedizione del presidente Napolitano in Italia, solo peggiorato le cose dal momento che l’Italia non è una repubblica parlamentare, ma una democrazia parlamentare, in cui tali accordi di cappa e spada sono certamente non consentiti dalla costituzione.
Il complotto contro Berlusconi.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=it&prev=/search%3Fq%3DWho%2Bis%2Bbehind%2BAlan%2BFriedman%2Band%2Bbook%2Bthe%2BGATTOPARDO%2Bkill%2Beach%2Bother%253F%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D2wK%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:it:official&rurl=translate.google.it&sl=en&u=http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-10/another-conspiracy-theory-becomes-fact-meet-men-plan-behind-italys-bloodless-coup&usg=ALkJrhg67leTLREVJIHhcV3F2k-rRMWrxA
Bello ripostare oggi la realtà di ieri.
Salve tutti!?”Vi leggo,ma non ho tempo per postare commenti”.
Salvatore Franco rassegnati. Nella pratica l’unico voto che viene preso in considerazione è il voto col portafoglio e non quello con la scheda.
Un saluto .
Marcello Anzil: NON VOTARE!
D’ACCORDISSIMO!!!
Sia per lo stato Europa e sia per lo stato Italia, due dittature che si fondano su un sistema identico.
Un saluto .
@ Marcello Anzil il 18 maggio 2014 alle 10:53:
“L’ unico voto ammesso dovrà essere quello per scegliere con un referendum se rimanere euroschiavi o ritornare ad essere liberi e padroni a casa nostra del nostro destino.”
Sì, è vero: bravo, bravissimo anche su tutto il resto: clap.. clap..
Io, intanto – poiché sono analfabetico (analfabeta+zotico) – a votare ci vado. E sa perché?
Perché, se volessi fare il gioco di chi dice lei, direi esattamente quello che lei ha detto, e con le stesse parole: “…ritornare ad essere liberi e padroni a casa nostra del nostro destino”.
Come quando ci si invitava ad andare al mare per le politiche, o per i referendum, se lo è dimenticato?
Dunque, anche dando per scontata la sua buona fede, il 25 maggio dirò la mia. Quello che succederà dopo, si vedrà. Un passo la volta…
Le elezioni europee sono un imbroglio. Servono solo a verificare e a leggittimare l’appartenenza degli euroschiavi. Fate i conti. Da quando siamo in Europa sono peggiorate le condizioni nei posti di lavoro, moltissimi sono andati perduti, le paghe sono state ridimensionate, la disoccupazione è aumentata, il potere di acquisto diminuito, si sono aggiunte tasse alle tasse, l’ immigrazione clandestina e selvaggia è stata favorita, la sanità pubblica è ormai inesistente, le pensioni sono diventate un miraggio e non basteranno per sopravvivere. Siamo noi che abbiamo permesso questo. Siamo noi che abbiamo lasciato entrare il mostro Europa con tutti i suoi demoni servitori. Ora ci viene chiesto, ancora una volta, di incensare i nostri carnefici recandoci a votare, e noi come pecore mansuete destinate al macello ci apprestiamo a farlo. E’ tutto un imbroglio, non cambierà nulla in meglio !! Chi ha il Potere nelle mani vuole farci solamente fuori tutti, questo è l’ unico vero progetto delle Caste. Il progetto è allevare il bestiame umano e mantenerlo il più ignorante e degradato possibile, per poterlo ridimensionare e poi sfruttare a piacimento. IL 25 MAGGIO N-O-N V-O-T-A-R-E ! L’ unico voto ammesso dovrà essere quello per scegliere con un referendum se rimanere euroschiavi o ritornare ad essere liberi e padroni a casa nostra del nostro destino.
@ L’aura. Brutta notizia per chi volesse sposare un agente di cambio entro un condominio libertario… niente Rolls Royce. A causa della libera concorrenza, come si insegna alla prima lezione di economia, c’è una pressione che tiene bassi i prezzi (qui: i profitti). Non solo le monete utilizzate tendono a essere poche anche quando in teoria possono essere infinite in ragione della libertà monetaria, ma i benefici per chi fa il lavoro del cambiavalute sono solo ragionevoli, e non spropositati. Peccato.
http://www.movimentolibertario.com/2014/05/europee-vincera-grillo-anzi-no-vincera-lantipolitica/
@Federico il 16 maggio 2014 alle 07:02:
Sembra ovvio, no? Infatti lo è…
Peccato che, come puoi vedere anche in questo blog, un sacco di gente non lo capisca e creda di aver bisogno del Bravo Padrone che decida al posto loro.
Federico del 16 ore 07 02. Hai ragione.
Un saluto .
Brava L’aura! Finalmente sei riuscita a dire qualcosa di intelligente, ed io, da libertario, quindi onesto, critico ed obbiettivo, non posso fare altro che riconoscertelo.
Mi riferisco a questa tua frase:
“i nostri prodi trovano finalmente un venditore di birra e stuzzichini (che si è costituito in Libero Smercio Minimo Libertario Liberista Sovrano) il quale però non accetta le loro monete perché non gli conviene.”
“…il quale però non accetta le loro monete perché non gli conviene”, inizi finalmente, piano piano, a capire come funziona l’economia ed il mercato.
Quindi, se te la senti di accettare un mio consiglio, il passo successivo che dovesti fare dovrebbe essere quello di chiederti: “cos’è che fa sì che mi convenga accettare una moneta al posto di un’altra?”.
Pensaci con calma, senza farti venire l’ulcera, secondo me ci puoi arrivare…
Un saluto .
L’argomento avanzato da l’aura (libertà monetaria = caos monetario… una miriade di monete tutte diverse…) non sta in piedi. Sarebbe come dire che il diritto di poter fare il fruttivendolo o il tassista porterebbe tutti noi a fare quel lavoro. No, ovviamente. Il diritto di usare la moneta che si vuole non farebbe venir meno (anzi!) quella selezione di mercato che è fondamentale per avere buoni prodotti e servizi. La libertà in campo informatico non produce caos, ma solo permette di usare Windows, Apple o qualche altro sistema operativo. Le ragioni di semplicità ed efficienza sono molto meglio prese in considerazione in un ordine libero che in uno monopolizzato da quattro deficienti (politici o banchieri centrali che siano).
depaoli.fabrizio@libero.it il 15 maggio 2014 alle 10:22:
“…in quale valuta li pagherà?”
Quella che accetterà il venditore. Mi sembra ovvio.
——————————————————–
^^^LIBERO CONDOMINIO MINIMO
LIBERTARIO LIBERISTA PRIVATO E SOVRANO CONFEDERATO
DI TRESETTE DI SOPRA E DI SOTTO^^^
munita dell’onestà, obiettività e senso critico tipici dei libertari;
del sano istinto naturale all’interesse individuale;
e di un certo numero variabile e imprecisato di libere monete in libera concorrenza nel libero mercato delle libere monete
l’intera Assemblea Costituente alle 21,15 si reca
a comperare birra e stuzzichini per la partitella serale, orgoglio e vanto della libera espressione della concorrenza individuale nel gioco liberista delle carte libertarie.
(“portatevi dietro l’agente di cambioooo..!” dicono le povere mogli. ma i libertari si sono già dileguati con tutta la loro sovranità individuale, a piedi)
dopo aver attraversato con eroica determinazione:
– n. 6 Liberi Condomini Minimi confinanti, appartenenti alla loro stessa medesima Libera Confederazione Libertaria
(e fin qui tutto bene: basta esibire ogni volta il tatuaggio)
– n. 1 statoladro
(visto temporaneo di passaggio e via velocissimi che puzza)
– e n. 3 territori piccoli ma rognosi ove alcune tribù si contendono il bosco e i pascoli
(otto legnate a cranio e precipitosa fuga)
i nostri prodi trovano finalmente un venditore di birra e stuzzichini (che si è costituito in Libero Smercio Minimo Libertario Liberista Sovrano) il quale però non accetta le loro monete perché non gli conviene.
onde, l’Assemblea Costituente, dopo aver effettuato la conta “ponte-ponente-ponte-ppi”, individua un volontario che accorre a recuperare l’agente di cambio riportandone ulteriori contusioni.
—– ordine del giorno —–
urge
aggiungere nel Libero Statuto del Condominio Libertario la voce:
– produzione di birra e stuzzichini nell’ambito della Confederazione dei Liberi Condomini Minimi Libertari Liberisti Privati e Sovrani, specificando “pistacchi”.
l’Assemblea si chiude alle 5,45 e niente partitella. cantano le allodole messaggere del mattino di un giorno nuovo nella novella era libertaria.
e una nuova sfida aspetta i nostri eroi: recarsi a comperare cornetto e cappuccino.
(“portatevi dietro l’agente di cambioooo..!”)
Angelo Santagostino,
“Il federalismo è la meta del liberalismo”
Beh.. non per me, per me la meta è la sovranità individuale, il federalismo può tutt’al più essere un passaggio intermedio qualora vada in quella direzione.
“ma per realizzarlo ci vuole una società liberale.”
Che non c’è perché gli stati (quegli stessi stati che vorrebbero “unirsi”) fanno di tutto perché la società NON diventi liberale.
Uno stato in presenza di una società liberale ha poco potere e quindi poco peso contrattuale quando deve confrontarsi con un suo potenziale partner, a mio avviso quindi una società liberale è incompatibile con la formazione di una confederazione di stati dove ogni stato ha una sua identità e massa ben precise. La massa (potenza) di uno stato è inversamente proporzionale con il grado di libertà della società che lo compone.
Uno stato che voglia associarsi con altri stati non avrà mai interesse ad avere massa inferiore. Chi crede che il “principio” di sussidiarietà sia un principio e che comunque venga tenuto in considerazione è un illuso. È solo inutile retorica. In qualsiasi associazione di stati prevale sempre e comunque la massa.
“L’Ue di oggi, accanto alle buone politiche, quelle suggerite da Einaudi, mercato unico, politica commerciale comune, unione monetaria e altro, ha prodotto alcuni mostri, quelli la politica agricola comune e altri eccessi di interventismo.”
Non può funzionare perché mercato unico NON è sinonimo di libero mercato. Non c’è da stupirs,i perché ci sono di mezzo le politiche economiche degli stati notoriamente meno efficenti di quelle che scaturirebbero naturalmente dal libero mercato ad opera degli imprenditori.
Se al limite in teoria quell’impostazione di tipo aziendale potrebbe funzionare, non funziona più quando si vuole interscambiare impresa privata con stato.
Senza contare poi (piccolo dettaglio) che uno stato (o unione di stati) che abbia il potere di decidere politiche economiche, nel momento in cui lo esercita NEGA o riduce fortemente la libertà di mercato al suo interno.
Capisci bene se la libertà di mercato riguarda solo gli stati non me ne può fregar di meno, anzi, sarei pure infastidito se facessi parte di uno stato particolarmente debole che non riesce a competere sul mercato tra stati magari a causa del drenaggio interno di risorse per mantenere se stesso e i vari parassiti.
Non funziona, se vuoi che il liberalismo funzioni devi per forza ridurre lo stato, o almeno togliere il socialismo.
“L’euro ha in sé tanto di liberale. Ha la costituzione monetaria auspicata da Buchanan, ha tolto agli stati l’opzione di emettere moneta”
Beh, più o meno, lo ha tolto agli stati ma lo ha dato alla Bce e gli stati vanno a contrattare con la Bce. Ci sono due passaggi di troppo: Bce e stati. Facciamo che passiamo ad un gold-standard puro, e che nessuno senza soldi non può comprare titoli di stato, De Soto credo che sarebbe ancora più soddisfatto, anzi facciamo di più: passiamo ad una moneta libera, probabilmente si affermerebbe un gold-standard, almeno avremmo garanzie di una moneta forte sulla quale nessuno stato ci potrà mettere le mani.
“L’Europa non va disfatta: va resa liberale.”
Per renderla liberale la devi disfare, anche l’Italia se vuoi renderla liberale la devi disfare, …non lo sapevi?
Un saluto .
L’Europa nasce con la CECA per volontà dell’Inghilterra per aqquietare Francia e Germania in continuo conflitto dai tempi di Carlomagno e dove l’Inghilterra in Francia era di casa. Nasce poi l’EURATOM e via via il resto.quindi in tempi non sospetti. con la caduta del muro di Berlino e la caduta del comunismo si sono inventati l’Europa per far rinascere il COMINTERN, tant’è evidente che quando uno Stato viene governato da politici non di sinistra hanno cercato di farli fuori. vedi Heider e Berlusconi. Mi auguro solo che il 25 maggio il nuovo parlamento europeo si riempia di Grillini, Leghisti, Lepeniani, greci, olandesi, spagnoli ed inglesi.
@angelo santagostino il 15 maggio 2014 alle 12:46:
La cosa ha effettivamente funzionato (e molto bene) fino a che una banda di socilisti/comunisti criminali non ha pensato bene di sostituire l’idea dell’internazionale socialista con quella di unione europea, cioè più o meno fino al trattato di maastricht. TUTTO ciò che è venuto dopo è solo lo stadio terminale e purulento delle infezioni che ammorbano gli stati nazionali ottocenteschi, essendo la UE null’altro che una loro riedizione su più vasta scala (cioè ancora più dittatoriale e odiosa). Rendere la UE liberale significa strappare tutti i trattati come minimo dal 92 a oggi. E non so se basterebbe…
Quanto al neuro, non ha proprio nulla di liberale e tantomeno di libertario, essendo una moneta imposta e non scelta dal mercato.
L’idea di Europa, quella che ha portato all’avvio della sua integrazione, è radicata nel pensiero federalista, uno dei migliori prodotti, oggi di fatto ripudiato, del pensiero liberale. Basti pensare a Kant, Mises, Hayek, Einaudi. Il federalismo è la meta del liberalismo, sosteneva Hayek, ma per realizzarlo ci vuole una società liberale. Nell’ultimo capitolo di The road to serfdom, Hayek vede nel federalismo europeo la via per contrastare l’ascesa del comunismo, non vuole una semplice alleanza di nazioni ma una comunità di uomini e nazioni libere. Questa comunità di uomini e nazioni libere ha trovato la sua espressione nel progetto di Einaudi per una federazione europea. Il federalismo e il suo tradursi in un progetto federativo europeo sono consistenti con la logica del pensiero liberale. Il federalismo liberale immagina polity leggere, così come vuole uno Stato minimalista. Ciò significa divisione e redistribuzione del potere (produzione di beni pubblici) tra le diverse polity, da quella locale a quella sovranazionale, sulla base dei criteri del federalismo fiscale e del principio di sussidiarietà.
Monnet era un liberale, nel 1943 scriveva della necessità di reintrodurre il liberalismo per creare quella che chiamava l’entità europea, che poi era una forma federativa.
Il problema nasce dal fatto che dell’idea federale se ne sono impossessati socialisti e popolari, facendone scempio. Così si hanno polity pesanti e con sovrapposizione di poteri. Ma i liberali invece di reclamare li hanno lasciati fare.
L’Ue di oggi, accanto alle buone politiche, quelle suggerite da Einaudi, mercato unico, politica commerciale comune, unione monetaria e altro, ha prodotto alcuni mostri, quelli la politica agricola comune e altri eccessi di interventismo.
L’Europa è stata grande grazie alla sua cultura, alla sua capacità di sviluppare le arti, le scienze, la filosofia, il pensiero politico ed economico. Ma al tempo stesso si è tante volte autodistrutta per via delle guerre civili che nei secoli l’hanno costantemente squassata. I grandi liberali (quelli sopra citati) aspiravano a un’Europa unita. Vedevano nella sovranità assoluta quel male che tante volte aveva portato all’autodistruzione europea. Volevano un’unione che coniugasse unità e diversità. Nel motto dell’Europa di oggi vi è questa visione.
Hayek già nel 1938-9 aveva indicato i pericoli del nazionalismo monetario. Qualche anno dopo Einaudi delineò l’unione monetaria, per togliere agli stati il diritto di emettere moneta del quale, nella storia, tante volte avevano fatto “malo uso”. L’euro ha in sé tanto di liberale. Ha la costituzione monetaria auspicata da Buchanan, ha tolto agli stati l’opzione di emettere moneta, come chiedeva Einaudi, è un parziale ristabilimento del gold standard, come posto in evidenza da un liberale quale Huerta de Soto.
Rinunciando all’euro si torna elle monete nazionali, alle monete manipolabili dagli stati, alle svalutazioni competitive. Non si va alle concurrent currencies!
L’Europa non ha il suo futuro nel disgregarsi dei suoi stati. Un’Europa di Stati-regione, sarebbe sempre un’Europa di stati sovrani, nazionalistici, e pericolosamente tentati dalla ricerca dello “spazio vitale”.
Troppo facile bollare come fanatico chi crede nel comune destino europeo. Se fanatismo vi è, allora è quello di chi vede la soluzione nella dissoluzione.
L’Europa non va disfatta: va resa liberale.
Angelo Santagostino
Andrea Pellis, ho seguito tutti i video relativi alla vostra discussione.
La vostra onestà, obiettività e senso critico -tipici dei libertari- hanno dato un panorama chiaro dei punti importanti, mi riferisco a come veicolare il pensiero.
Partendo dal punto (mi pare sottolineato da Rivo Cortonesi. Mi scuserete se sbaglio ma ho solo ascoltato perché stavo guidando) che c’è poco tempo, e partendo dal punto che è un problema di cultura “fiat” ormai in molti radicata, questi due aspetti -verissimi entrambi- sono in conflitto.
Onestamente non credo ci sia una ricetta risolutiva nell’immediato, ragionare e far ragionare per scoprire la nostra cultura sana ed intima e ridare importanza ai princìpi è in contrasto con la cultura “fiat”, e richiede tempo e fatica. È la strada che io personalmente scelgo perché i risultati ottenuti in quel modo sono molto più solidi e duraturi.
Nel frattempo però manca il tempo.
Allora continuando a sfruttare qualsiasi mezzo facilmente accessibile tipo il web (come avete ricordato, Grillo insegna) o la comunicazione diretta tra individui nella vita di tutti i giorni, per accedere a quelli più “veloci” (radio e tv) servono soldi, serve uno o più sponsor che vanno ricercati tra gli imprenditori dell’economia reale, principalmente produttori di beni, possibilmente alimentari. Ti dico queste caratteristiche perché mi sembrano i più adatti ad affrontare un investimento che darà i suoi frutti, non nel breve periodo, ma nel medio lungo.
Quei frutti non arriveranno più da un governo (come si è portati a pensare ora) ma da un mercato che riacquista salute e diventa ricco e stabile nel tempo. In una parola: sostenibile.
Nomi?
Così d’istinto mi vengono in mente quelli di Ferrero e Barilla, ma ci vuole gente che conosca direttamente le proprietà per dire se potrebbero essere effettivamente adatti e disponibili.
Sarebbe anche un’azione coerente autotassarsi direttamente (magari sottraendo una quota a quella che rapina lo stato) diventare azionisti a tutti gli effetti di un’azienda che “produce” libertà.
Un saluto .
http://www.lindipendenza.com/elezioni-il-partito-del-codice-penale-e-del-codice-stradale/
@Salvatore Franco il 14 maggio 2014 alle 19:50:
Insulti gratuiti (basta così poco?), sproloqui e vaneggiamenti statalisti (“Senza lo stato, chi costruirà le strade?”. Ma dai…), ma ancora nessuna risposta ad una semplicissima domanda. E non dovrebbe farmi pena?
PLONK
@depaoli.fabrizio@libero.it il 15 maggio 2014 alle 10:16:
Grazie!
Mi raccomando, se hai suggerimenti e proposte non farti problemi, abbiamo bisogno del contributo di tutti quelli che credono che “libertà” e “stato” non possono coesistere.
“…in quale valuta li pagherà?”
Quella che accetterà il venditore. Mi sembra ovvio.
Salvatore Franco del 15 ore 06 05.
Modo articolato ed elegante per non rispondere, cogliendo oltretutto l’occasione per fare i capricci.
Un saluto .
Andrea Pellis, ho avuto questa mattina la fortuna di andare per lavoro dalle parti di Parma, quindi durante il viaggio ho avuto il tempo di ascoltare i video con grande interesse e soddisfazione.
Vorrei portare all’attenzione di TUTTI il video di Giovanni Birindelli, fa veramente riflettere ed è emozionante nella parte finale:
http://vimeo.com/94140483
Rivo Cortonesi invece spiega i motivi ed il fine IMPORTANTISSIMO e NOBILISSIMO della vostra iniziativa:
http://vimeo.com/94079937
Per chi volesse approfondire può trovare gli altri video qui:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/libericomuni/
Ancora complimenti ed un saluto .
P.s. Al contrario di Giovanni Birindelli tu sei più efficace come oratore che come scrittore. Bene così!
@ depaoli.fabrizio@libero.it il 14 maggio 2014 alle 22:40:
Caro Fabrizio,
in continuità con quello che ho detto all’amico tuo, ti confesso – non senza un certo disagio – che avrei una qualche difficoltà ad interloquire con chi parte tranquillo (“Mi verrebbe ora da chiedere..”) e finisce sistematicamente con commiserazioni o con valutazioni psichiatriche sull’interlocutore. Soprattutto quando si aggiunge (precedente reale) che se uno manifesta una qualche espressione di stima per l’altro, si sente rispondere di “levargli la lingua dalle chiappe”. Senza considerare il “se vuoi essere bene accetto da queste parti…”, come welcome iniziale. Non è solo un fatto di termini, ma anche di toni usati e di sostanza. Io, del leccaculo, non me lo faccio dare da nessuno, semplicemente perché non lo sono. E tantomeno del pusillanime, perché non sono neanche quello. Inoltre, circa i miei equilibri psichici: sto bene così, grazie.
Poiché non siamo in privato, nel qual caso la mia reazione sarebbe ancora diversa, io non mi posso limitare a chiedere “gradirei che”, ma devo mandare a cagare in un nanosecondo chi si permette di insistere con certe espressioni. E’ proprio cosa ineludibile, come dice un’amica nostra.
Apprezzerai che con te non l’ho fatto per la prima, per la seconda, e neanche per la terza volta (welcome escluso). Dopo di che le tue opzioni sono finite, per quanto mi riguarda. Cosa per la quale ti inviterei caldamente a trovarti un interlocutore più paziente di me, grazie. Ciao.
“Il senso è (secondo me) che un gruppo (stato) più piccolo ed omogeneo che abbia più uniformità di princìpi e visione della vita, necessiti di meno regole, quindi di meno stato.”
un bel condominio libertario, direi.
piano terra: fabrizio. secondo piano (ovviamente): pellis.
ognuno rigorosamente con la sua moneta.
se metti si fanno un tresette la sera a soldi, chiamano l’agente di cambio.
perché ormai lo sanno pure i sassi che le libere monete nel libero mercato delle libere monete, seguendo una legge naturale non hanno un andamento prevedibile.
ma una domanda mi sorge spontanea: chi porta la birra e gli stuzzichini?
e in quale valuta li pagherà?
buona partitella, e saluti all’agente di cambio (il più benestante di tutti)
Andrea Pellis, ho controllato, sono nel gruppo, “arruolato” da Rivo Cortonesi in persona.
Ora mi guarderò tutti i video che avete girato a Siena.
Ti ringrazio per la stima che ricambio sinceramente.
Concordo in pieno con te sul “non votare”.
È la cosa più coerente e logica che si possa fare.
Vado a spiegare per quelli che sono preda di paure e complotti di ogni genere, che non hanno le idee chiare e che hanno sempre paura di sbagliare qualunque cosa facciano, o non facciano:
Nel momento in cui io considero lo stato socialista un sistema volto a rapinare, reprimere la libertà, che non ha princìpi che io possa condividere, che mi OBBLIGA a sostenerlo finanziariamente e formalmente chiedendomi il voto per legittimare e continuare la sua azione distruttiva, ebbene, se io non lo riconosco, non votando evidentemente NON LO LEGITTIMO. È un gesto di estrema coerenza che legittima l’altro gesto di estrema coerenza: smettere di alimentare la bestia affinché muoia.
Mi verrebbe ora da chiedere a Salvatore Franco: di che ti preoccupi?
Quale gioco starei facendo nel momento in cui mi dissocio anima e corpo dallo stato socialista?
Il gioco delle lobby?
No di certo. A queste servono stati che abbiano potere sui sudditi, ed io glielo sto levando.
Il gioco dei banchieri?
Neanche. A questi servono stati che si indebitino e soprattutto che ripaghino i debiti, ma io non pagando più lo stato farò in modo che questi fallisca ed a seguire falliscano le banche, o se preferisci anche il contrario: prima le banche e poi gli stati, per me va bene lo stesso.
Il gioco degli economisti mainstream?
Proprio no. Questi basano tutte le loro teorie economiche considerando che le azioni umane in campo economico possano essere pilotate dagli stati, ma se io agisco individualmente, di mia iniziativa, contro la volontà dello stato, ed insieme ad altri milioni di persone nel mondo, le loro teorie vanno a farsi fottere completamente perché io e molti altri siamo quel fattore umano, quell’azione individuale imprevedibile che quel tipo di “economia” non prevede.
…e molto più banalmente: se io mi tengo la ricchezza che produco o la scambio con chi voglio, e se divento sovrano di me stesso, secondo te, di chi potrei mai fare il “gioco” se non il mio?
Un saluto .
Per chi parla di libertario vorrei ricordare che non può esistere in campo capitalista, perchè vele solo per i ricchi, gli altri subiscono e basta, non tirate fuori il socialismo classico perchè vale lo stesso principio, basta sostituire ai padroni i gerarchi del partito e l’equazione si risolve lo stesso.
Non esistono diritti naturali se non la legge del più forte, e perseguendo la strada del liberismo assoluto a quella si torna, levatevi di bocca la parola libertario, è tutt’altro, per quanto riguarda la proprietà privata leggetevi vari testi anche antichi dove se ne parla, comprendendo anche l’origine dello stato, uno famoso è stato scritto aun noto comunista, ma non mi sembra per niente campato in aria, basato anzi su studi antropologici, basta vedere come vivevano antiche tribù dove non esisteva il concetto di proprietà, in particolare della terra, che era di tutti e di nessuno.
Forse questo a portato allo sviluppo della cosidettà civiltà, ma forse non della felicità, erano più felici i pellerossa americani, che si domandavano come mai quegli stranieri li uccidessero, li cacciessero dalle terre dove avevano sempre vissuto, e che per loro erano del grande spirito, come gli animali che vi si trovavano, erano certamente molto più liberi di noi, sicuramente dalla smania del possesso, ma la “roba” nessuno se la porta dietro.
@ Andrea Pellis
Che pena? Ma che dici, stai vaneggiando come al solito? T’è venuta la solita crisi? Ma che robaccia usi?
Tu ti sei dato la risposta da solo nella fatwa-premessa. Perciò c’era il segno + quando ti ho riportato. E poi hai fatto la solita domandina RETORICA, spacciandola per domanda vera. E, quando senti una risposta che non è quella che vorresti sentire, ti metti a fare il bambinetto incontinente di sempre e partono i “che pena..”, i “se lo dici tu..” o le troll-fobie maniacali. Mica solo con me, eh! E invece io te lo ripeto, visto che sei duro d’orecchi: se non voti per nessuno fai il gioco del partito unico dell’euro. Quello di chi ha messo gli italiani in braghe di tela. Uno che vota, ammesso che sia in buona fede, almeno pensa qualcosa di sensato. Giusto o sbagliato che sia. Non se ne corre dietro ad utopie e castelli in aria come i tuoi e di pochi altri. O come quelli che ha manipolato lo Zaia di cui vi eravate perdutamente INNAMORATI! brutta la verità, eh? o manco questo è vero?!? Ed è profondamente scorretto (giusto per completezza) dare del pusillanime a chi non la pensa così, o fare lo psichiatra improvvisato a tutti i costi. Se non ti piacciono queste risposte te le farai piacere per forza, visto che chi la “pensa” (chiedo scusa, Cartesio)come te non ha né numeri né modi per cambiare un tubo, come non è stato cambiato un piffero di niente finora, con quel sistema, in nessuna parte del mondo. I quattro gatti-enfatici che siete sapete benissimo che è così. Quello è un modo come un altro per distogliere l’attenzione da qualunque tipo di elezione. E voi abboccate. Vi manca lo “strumento”, insomma. In tutti i sensi. E, a pensar male, si potrebbe anche supporre che una parte di voi ci stiano marciando, e di brutto, su quest’andazzo.
E sei pure fortunato che non andate oltre le solite quattro chiacchiere, al massimo le lattine di pomodoro coi “cannoncini” sopra, e che siete nel paese di pulcinella. Perché se tu fossi stato in certi posti che ho visto con i miei occhi, o in Ucraina, forse non saresti nemmeno vivo. E certamente non lo sarebbero quelli del tanko, spazzati via da una cannonata vera. Denominatore comune: il solito Putin, che m’era sembrato ti piacesse ultimamente. Valli a fare un po’ da quelle parti ‘sti giochini delle libere associazioni delle teorie, vai lì se hai le palle. Non dove non rischi niente mentre ti ciucci INTANTO quello che lo Stato ti offre, a partire dall’assistenza medica. Vai, vai dove paghi pure le ambulanze, le medicine e gli ospedali se stai schiattando. Così ti finiscono subito i “che pena” e i “se lo dici tu”. Invece di fare danno a chi vuole uscire dall’europa cominciando a mandare a casa quei delinquenti che tu non hai neanche il coraggio di denunciare con nome e cognome, se non sono comunisti.
E, a proposito di bon ton: i “che pena” – la prossima volta – valli a dire a tua sorella, se ne hai una, zotico..